Tenacity Wrote:Neither the bundschuh nor the blood dragons are your typical 'pirates'. They are political activists who are occasionally forced to use violence as a tool to achieve their ends, but both groups are respectable and have 'honorable' or 'good' intentions. Those seem to me to be far more likely choices for allies than the 'actual' pirates and criminals, which the corsairs and hogosha represent.
Well, technically they are pirates who are very annoying while passing through Kusari in your trader (dunno about Rheinalnd, I hardly go there)
About their political goals...
The blood dragons fight for the re-installment of some Shogun dynasty. Not exactly pro-democracy either. If their view of 'honor' is 'good' is arguable. The fact that Order and Blood dragons worked together to kill the governor was a pure coincidnce. They were fighting the Kusari government long before Kusari was infected.
Bundschuh... pretty much the same thing. The Bundschuh would be closer to 'good' in my eyes if they fight the militarism and oppression of the Chancelor (assuming Rheinlanders really are the military numnuts they are portrayed as by some RPers). But the fact that they worked with Order was also a pure coincidence, because the Chancelor was infected. But it looks like the Chancelor was infected fairly recently before the SP campain, and the Bundschuh existed long before nomad infestation too.
In both cases... the Order couldnt care less about the political goals of those 2 that you call theri 'allies'. They cared about eliminating the nomad threat. Order bonded with all sorts of people... navy, LSF, Blood dragons, Bundschuh, outcasts, rogues. Wether those people were 'good' or 'honorable' didnt matter a single bit. What mattered was they gave the Order what the Order wanted.
Quote:Despite being labelled as a terrorist organization, the order is still chaotic lawful at it's core.
Chaotic?
I didnt have that impression. What do you mean by chaotic?
Chaos=Order now?:P
Do you mean anarchy? (=no hierarchy by its true meaning, despite its negative conotations)
Lawful?
Lawful means you obey laws. It doest mean 'good' or bad' or 'chaotic' or 'organised'. Order didnt obey any laws at all. CIA doesnt obey the laws of every country they are operating in. Sometimes CIA dont even obey USA laws, they either have special laws for themselves or they pretend to obey laws.
The main reason of a covert operation being covert is that it doesnt want to obey the laws of the state or banana republic it is operating in.
Order isnt exactly made of cotton candy either, incase you think they should only mix and mingle with 'good people'. They are in the business of killing, and also kill innoscent people if necessary.
"The ends justify the means" is the only imperative or law the Order lives by.
Quote:Just like any organization, the order needs a supply line. Having agents here and there is great, it provides information from areas the order cant actively keep tabs on, but that doesnt provide material to build ships, or fuel to move them. Further, the order is (or is supposed to be) an extremely small group, with only a few thousand members to it's name - and most of those are support personnel, not pilots or officers. The nomads are growing in number, just as they did during the first nomad war, and despite it's technological advantages (which, by the way, do not exist - order ships are no match for nomad ships, I fly both and can easily attest to that) the order simply cannot fight the nomads on it's own. It needs reliable allies to call on when the **** hits the fan, so to say - pilots and warships which can show up and assist in battle, when battle becomes the only resort.
Yes. That is why the Hogosha make a much more logical ally than the Blood Dragons. The Hogosha have the power and the secrecy. They dont live like pirates robbing people to support themselves. The Hogosha can detour resources from the Kusari keiretsu to help the Order, and are a more attractive partner because of their higher influence.
How would the Blood Dragons and Bundschuh and Red Hessians suport the Order? They should theoretically have barely enough material to suport their own cause. And they get it form piracy. How would they ever suport the Order with war material? And why should they?
One main reason I asked about allies..
As we saw with the Corsairs... the ally will want something in return. Did you notice in the SP campain how the BLood dragons tried to get the governor by capturing a transport? THey got Trent to help them and... damn! NO governor! Only diamonds and gold in the freighter! Woooops! Better luck next time...
Would the ORder try to help the Bundschuh, Hessians, and Blood dragons in their polical goals? It makes no sense in the current situation. Kusari and Rheinland are fighting their wilde instead of being infected themselves. If anyone is a candidate for being infected, it would be liberty... fighting the ORder, doing experiments, toleratinf noamds and morphs in NY, starting a war with Rheinland. If Order wants an unlawful ally... take the Lane HAckers (unfortunately they are addicted to cardi too) or the rogues (they are morrons but what the hell).
In my eyes, the PERFECT ally would be Rheinland. Goals... common enemy, resources.
But I doubt that would ever happen because people are too caught in stereotypes, SP nostalgia, and their naive perception of 'good' and 'bad'.
Quote:Do the soviet union's tanks and helicopters mysteriously explode because they went out of business? No, they're still in use around the world. This is a roleplaying game, and like it or not we have to make things as realistic or feasible as possible. Discovery has a linear timeline, you cant go back and erase things you dont like, unfortunately at times. The corsairs have been building osirises in their own shipyards for a very long time now, and that is simply something we cannot take away from them.
Well, I think its more likely someone would plant a bomb... I mean... there would be "an unfortunate accident"... in an aircraft carrier or dreadnaught if... I dunno... USA gave an ally an aircraft carrier and then that someone there stops the alliance and goes to attack an ally of the US. If they wouldnt just just sink it directly with an anti ship missile. I think I know how Order would do it...
Thats what I meant with that. And an Osiris has a larger strategic significance and is harder to uphold than a kalashnikov or a tank. But I know Corsairs can build it themselves.
What I also meant... the Corsairs can make alternative ships. Just say the Osiris doesnt meet the needs of the Corsairs. There is no real ingame need for them to fly it. THere a thousand ways you could RP into Corsais not using it anymore.
Thing is... its not done, because players dont want to give up their super-pwnsor ship, even if it adds a kinda weird RP experience... of having someone of one faction use the ship of another faction.
You use the 'oh yeah but I got it in that special way' argument for this case, but forbid it in other cases.
That is what I meant.
Quote:4: Do I gather correctly that some Order players were stopping Corsaires from smuggling artifacts where they wanted while they were still allied? WHY??? There is a simple RP explanation which can keep everyone happy as long as the alliance exists: Order gets the good artifacts from the Corsairs, the others get the junk. Why stop them? Only 'because you can'?
To my knowledge, the order has never stopped an artifact smuggler, not in my near two years of playing as a member of the order faction. The only time such a ship would be stopped is if it was breaking some other law, acting hostile, or causing trouble for the order that isnt related to it's artifact cargo.
Thought i remember some peopel complaining about not being able to smuggle artifacts because ORder players complained... maybe my memory tricked me.
EDIT: This is the link that gave me that impression.
I didnt witness any of that ingame or know if it was a serious issue for the Corsairs. I just remeber that it seemed weird to me that Order doenst have better things to do than confiscate synthweed:P