Judcial Order

[JudgeYohance]

I've asked Supreme Judge Logan if I am may post on the thread to see if I can help to clear up the remaining questions that are floating around along with some general notes I have on the request.

"The general tone of the thread is that people have not personally seen you interact a lot with others. I and clearly a few others have only seen you either above Newark (not all claimed AFK) or training with other Judges. They have not seen you do anything else - which does not necessarily mean that you do nothing else - so won't have had an in-game interaction with you."

"Maybe everyone who has is too shy to post or hasn't seen this thread yet."

This honestly would not surprise me. We often sit by the station, talk to those who wish to talk and scan anyone who comes by. Mean while, we either are talking with each other in group or TS. Staying there allows to find and recruit players into the cadets.

Many times we can be found training nearby as well for the same reason. It get's peoples attention as well as allowing us to hone the skills further. Cadets need to pass a 10 to 12 week trial period before they can become a judge and on average, we loose about 80% of recruits during this. Of the numbers you have seen currently as Judges and Cadets, we have lost 18 who we recruited, 16 as cadets and 2 as Judges.

Generally we do not talk unless talked to. As to the statement that people believe we are afk, I can understand their misconception. Generally we try to instill as part of the training not to speak unless spoken to or unless there is something important to be said. If it is conversation on a personal scale, we tend to ask members to keep it off the public channels. When it is official, it is generally left to the most senior Judge to handle it and the others will stay off the main channel while they do and discuss it among each other via group channel or TS.

We are 100% open to talking with others and even encourage those who wish to, to watch us when we are training. During the non-official sessions and even occasionally during the official ones, we may let others join directly in it. We can't always interact with others when doing this and this is because of time limitations. (Gathering so many players together from multiple time zones is a serious challenge and we design the training schedule as best we can around when we can get the most at once)

As per the posting question, which as you can see, I often don't post either, it honestly takes too much time for too little pay out. Speaking personally, if I feel it is necessary, I post and if it is within the RP realm, I take great pains to be as detailed as possible. One sentence posts or even one paragraph posts I feel are insufficient to often convey what is necessary for proper RP. I also too often read too many response posts that feel...empty. So I prefer to spend my time server side rather then take time to do things here and on the same note, I prefer live contact over messages.

"You said Japan had no resources, then you said it had a booming economy. Which is it? Not that it matters; making references to WWII won't get you officialdom."

You really should read some history, it is quite fascinating when you look at the causes of WWII.

Japan has virtually no natural resources. During the period between WWI and WWII. They began to westernize the industry but found they could not expand into the market place as China controlled the biggest natural resource industry in the region. Japan had to import virtually everything in order to become the power that it becomes by WWII. They used these resources to rebuild themselves into a industrial powerhouse and as a result of the depression hitting most of the western powers by the 1930's they were given the opportunity to finally expand and take those, now less defended resources, for themselves. This started with the invasion of Manchuria in 1937. It was, in fact, our halting of all oil sales to Japan (which was responsible for over three quarters of all of their oil) that prompted Japan to launch the Pearl Harbor attack as without our oil, they had only about a year of reserves and the government refused to pull back it's invasion of China.

If you want a more modern day example. Hong Kong has the larges IPO (Initial Public Offering) in the world, it also is a dead rock. There is not one resource on the entire island. It's economy comes 100% from outside and on top of that, it today has the highest life expectancy per person on earth.

The point that was trying to be made is that you can have a huge number of resources and still not be capable of producing virtually anything (90% of all U.S. industry was shut down from 1929 to 1939) and on the other side you can have nothing of your own and be able to bring in what you need and become a powerful industry (as Japan did during that same time period)

The other point that at least I thought was cleverly made concerning the Manhattan project was it takes a very small group of individuals to make a huge difference.

"Manhattan Project employed more than 130.000 people and cost $2 billion at the time (equivalent to $25.8 billion in 2012 according to wiki)"

Yes it did, and not one of those people would have been worth their weight in salt if not for a select few. If you are going to use Wiki as a reference source, I would ask you to read the entire article first. Running at a glance I can pick out the names responsible for making the bomb a success from just the first paragraph.

Leó Szilárd- Drafted the original letter with Eugene Wigner that got the president to begin development of the Manhattan project (Contributed to development of bomb by developing with Fermi the neutronic reactor that without which, the bomb could not exist)
Eugene Wigner - Drafted the original letter with Leó Szilárd that got the President to begin development of the Manhattan project (Though did little towards the project himself)

Albert Einstein- Signed the letter Drafted by Leó Szilárd and Eugene Wigner that got the President to begin development of the Manhattan project. I would need a few days to list everything he contributed towards the project

Enrico Fermi- Developed the science of Nuclear Chain Reaction without which, there would be no basis for the nuclear bomb at all during the time of WWII (Nazi Germany was using his Nobel prize research of 1938 on Nuclear Chain Reaction to get their start on building the weapon as well)

Without these names, the bomb does not exist. I believe it was a Mensa article that once showed how less then 2% of all humans who have ever lived are responsible for the progress of humanity. The atomic bomb example is one such instance and the point that it takes only a small dedicated group to do incredible things.

"No. Just no.

One of your "members" used Zoner Colony Ships to keep inRP ships from finding a base (which was found eventually) and your pilots constantly sit outside Newark. Doing nothing. No RP, the occasional "Assisting LN" which turns into "Run to newark" a few hundred times over.

And the "ID". Your joking, right? Battleships? Where are they going to be flown? Omicron Delta? Whats the actual reason behind your faction existing? Is it just "Just Cause"? Are you trying to be a Sirius wide cop force enforcing all the rules you can find? Is there some sort of backstory other than "We came together to make sure laws are followed".

Your group has a lot to answer for, and your goals (both long and short term) should be a bit clearer.

Edit: Also, there /are/ no debris fields in coronado. Unless you have figured out a way to make ships out of asteroids and frozen water.

Edit 2: Warships are a big deal. You can't just ask for "Hey, can we have a battleship?" Thats a privilege, not a right. Some official factions didn't have a battleship for months even after they where granted official faction status. Take the SCRA for example. They have cruisers. Their lore and exquisite RP got them a few Battleships from various sources, and they used them as such. The Hellfire Legion had to use a import Spyglass that wasn't theirs, but they made due using RP to acquire different ships. Your group still has a lot to show for themselves, Your not just going to get battleships on a whim, nor official faction status. Asking for all that at once will only deepen the grave and lower your chances to get official faction status."

To begin with, unless they have the Judge tag, they are not a Judge. We will take non-Judge ships into group channels to talk with them more privately but to my knowledge, there is not Judge vessel that is such a ship. As far as combat goes, I will drag any ship to any station, vessel, rock etc that I think will give me an edge over an opponent and I think most other combatants would as well.

The ID along with the vessels was tricky to craft I admit. To be honest, most of the ID's and the vessels associated with them confuse the heck out of me. From RP perspectives, I question many things. Such as small pirate organizations such as Rouges having cruisers or corporations with their own battleships which apparently are not subject to government oversight. I admit some of the RP concepts are clever, and even inventive. However, if I look at it from a historical perspective and monetary perspective, it makes little sense to me. Just as examples-

Kagutsuchi - Blood Dragon Cruiser

"This fearsome cruiser is noted for its enormous forward firing cannon. Crafted from technologies provided by the Order during their tenure of cooperation, the Kagutsuchi was crafted to provide the raw stopping power needed to combat the feared tides of Wild infested Kusarian fleets. Built upon the designs of an ancient naval cruiser, the vessel contains the graceful lines and imposing agility that defined the fleets of the age."

The organization has no home planet, the bases consists of a shipyards and asteroid bases. 100% of the resources they use must be stolen or smuggled and they cannot produce anything that is necessary to maintain a space fleet (No military can exist without an economy backing it up in some form), yet they not only have this cruiser, but a battleship?

As for the Togo Battleship, if you want to argue these vessels were some how usurped from the KNF, then why are these vessels as strong as the modern ships as the organization is centuries old and the RP behind them is they are old vessels they re-commissioned and upgraded. Well if I did that to a 500 year old sailing ship how well do you think it would hold up? Or is the argument that the technology in the FL universe is not advancing? As for the GC alliance with them, their group does not have the resources to make this work either. I could understand the fighter and bomber designs and might buy that, but these monstrous ships which in some cases are bigger then their bases?

(Side note to BD, I am not ragging on you specifically, Togo was the first name that popped up when I went to the BS cap list)

As per the rest of your post, I would ask you to re-read the stories to gain the RP feeling and if it is not enough to post specifically what part is confusing you so we can try to help.

"While you may have answered some questions and such. The fact still stands that this request does not conform to the rule set forth for official faction creation.

What ID are you using?
Where is the 500m for the admins beer fund?
What tag are you using?
What is your diplomacy with other factions?

Honestly, I am not entirely sure what to make of your faction. When I have seen you in game it has either been one of two things: You guys chatting inRP and ooRP on top of Newark (good/bad) or fighting you when you bothered to help the Navy shot down my merc or pirate (good, wtb moar).

You also need to understand you don't get to be neutral and friendly to everyone in Sirius. The Neutrals of Sirius, the Zoners, fill that void and even they have trouble maintaining their stance. Not only do they have trouble maintaining that neutral approach, but they aren't well liked because of it. The difference between you and the Zoners is you actively shoot people (that the rules allow you to). This will make it extremely difficult to maintain that neutral approach. The Outcasts aren't going to like hearing that you shot down a bunch of Rogue transports ladden with Cardamine. The Bretonian's aren't going to like that you didn't help them shoot the Corsairs in Cambridge. Basically, the only reason the Zoners neutrality works is because they (aren't suppose to) don't irritate anyone else. That is, they don't aggresively shoot other people - makes being neutral impossible.

As I said before, seems like you're a bunch of Zoners who've got the idea that they are the Sirius Police. As for the capital ships? No go. As far as I can tell from speaking with the thinkers on the dev team - they are of the opinion that there are already to many factions with capital ships that shouldn't have them.

The Judges have no role play base for having the ships, they do not have the resources, the manpower, or infrastructure. You can claim you do all you want, doesn't make it so. You're merely 12 individuals in fighters and bombers (gunboat too maybe?). You're a wing sized element at most. Now, while you can claim you're larger you don't have the role play foundation to back it up.

I'll give you an example. OSI. Not a super large faction player wise nor role play wise. In role play the company has 2 to 3 thousand employees max. Player wise we may have 20ish people who call themselves members with less being very active.

The basis for the 2 to 3 thousand claim is simple. Nichols Trade Center hosts 800 of them. The transport captain's and their crews make up another large chunk. The workers who run our factories on the Cornucopia another large chunk. Then there is the staff that run the comapny's headquarters. OSI's role play has evovle over a two (three now I think) year period to this point. You've been around a few months?

You're free to claim you're some super large organization with all the resources in the world. We're free to call you crazy (inRP) for such claims when lore and role play contradict your statements.

My suggestion is to read some of the recently approved official faction requests. Speak with the leaders of the factions in the areas you want to play in (Liberty?). The single largest issue with your request is that you're asking for everything when you've done nothing to justify what you've asked for."

"

No. No they were not answered.

http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showforum=65

Gander at the pinned topics. They specify that an ID must be specified in the faction's proposal. Proposing an ID is not specifying an ID that already exists. This faction cannot role play in the game without the use of an ID. Thus, they cannot participate on this server without selecting an ID to use.

I do not see where they specified the tag they are using. A Tag is not an image. It is an in game tag. The tag that the admins will use to track the faction's activity. OSI-, OZ-, [TAZ], [LN] are examples.

I do not see a typical listing of this factions diplomatic standings. They mention it, but do not make an effort to thoroughly define it as per the standard diplomatic listing.

I'd advise you to re-read their proposal. They aren't Anti Zoners nor do they shot everyone. They shoot those they feel violated the laws of the area they are in. They won't shoot lawful factions - if they did they'd be going against their stated goals.

Shooting everyone doesn't get you neutral to everyone. It gets you hostile to everyone. I suppose you've heard of the little Liberty faction known as the Xenos, right?"

There are some legitimate statements between these two posts. Let me see if I can clarify and fix some of what you are mentioning.

"Please remove funding for this application from Supreme_Judge-Logan. Thank you."

That is in the original post. I was not sure if you caught it between the two as I saw you changed the question number in the second one but for reference that is the "beer fund"

As per things such as Tag and ID. Psypimple was correct, however I can see where it does not match the dummy post properly (http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17044) which was the initial template used when putting this together. So allow me to try and fix

Tags are as follows

Cadet-playername
Judge-playername

Variations around the terms are listed within the Judicial Rank section of the post. We do apologize for the oversight. We thought that was made clear by the rank section.

The ID we created is what we would wish as an official faction. For the time being, all Cadets and Judges are using Freelancer ID's

As per diplomacy, I think the reason the concept is so difficult to understand is because we do in fact reject, the standard "Must shoot this guy, must ally this guy" system. This works within the original vanilla game because the story is rigid even if the game itself was fairly open. Zoner neutrality as a concept works really because they are providing resources to factions with in RP that need them keeping the pirates off them and the lawful governments don't truly care as long as they are not violating the laws of their space.

"I'd advise you to re-read their proposal. They aren't Anti Zoners nor do they shot everyone. They shoot those they feel violated the laws of the area they are in. They won't shoot lawful factions - if they did they'd be going against their stated goals."

You have it about 2/3rds of the way with this statement. We will respect the laws of any space we are in. We will assist those in need but there are some elements that are not quite right. As has been mentioned we have helped LN and LPI on a few occasions. This has been the majority of the time in hunting an individual who attacked a civilian but we have refused to assist in operations where they are fighting simply because they ran into each other.

The player who attacked the civilian transport in our eyes is a fair target who violates the laws of the space as well as laws of civility. A pirate vessel simply sitting in the area but not bothering anyone or perhaps even just conversing with the passer bys are not hurting anyone and not violating the local space, thus, are not a target to us. It is because of this that we cannot state ourselves as allies or enemies to any specific group. All pilots are different. A gentleman in a LH tagged ship but is not pirating anyone or hurting anybody to us is not a threat. Using the regular diplomatic list forces one to effectively attack on sight anyone with an ID that is "Hostile" to you. Our concept is that the ID/IFF are not nearly as relevant as the actions of the player in the ship. No one person can speak for an entire organization and we treat the pilots in this way.

Also by maintaining this unallied state to all powers, we can act as go betweens for negotiations between them. No faction near as I can tell has ever attempted this approach to RP. Relations between factions seem to change very infrequently and they stay rigid to the original lists (and the modifications made in each update for core stories). However, true relations change and evolve over time. As an example, the original LR story is they are lower class former Liberty workers effectively forced to just survive under Liberty's rule and are now a small scale rebellion against the upper class society. If 2 centuries of war have achieved nothing, then why would they not wish to consider attempting diplomacy through a third party to achieve their goals or for that matter, why LN would not want to use the opportunity to possibly end or at the least slow down the piracy through this means? These are just a few of the many examples I could come up with.

It's not that our RP concept is minimal, it is we are attempting to create a type of RP which this place honestly does not appear to have ever tried.

" As for the capital ships? No go. As far as I can tell from speaking with the thinkers on the dev team - they are of the opinion that there are already to many factions with capital ships that shouldn't have them."

I agree with you and your dev team more then you can possibly know with that statement. With that said, we ask for it all because we see exactly that. The feeling among us is if so many groups have cap ships that frankly shouldn't, why should we not ask for them ourselves? If the admins come and say no, that is one thing, to not ask at all when all these other groups seem to have them leaves a permanent block on the issue. If we didn't, and asked at a later point, one of the first questions I would ask in their position would in fact be "When we set you up as official and put together your base, Id, Etc...why did you not ask so it could be set up at that time rather then forcing another update on our end?"

" Spread out & spend time separately playing in other disco factions, learn more about how things work here, how people interact in RP & become more of an RP forum presence...In other words, kill the clan, play the game, then remake an actual faction later. As it stands now, it's ignorantly overreaching."

Honestly, for possibly the exception of myself who prefers to carry the RP of his character and rarely uses another name, most of the current judges are members of several factions in other names be it police, naval, pirate etc. Many of them have actually been on this server far longer then I have (I joined a year ago). To be honest, the reason we have gotten them in many cases were because they are very tired of the internal bickering of the factions they were part of and the clashing of the leaderships.

If you were to look behind the veil of what we do internally, perhaps it would be clearer. There is a manual all members are given (not a forum page post but an eight page manual of what is expected from those who join us). We keep spread sheets on our members particularly the Cadets and their training progress (if they miss 3 of the 12, they are out. This is done over a 12 week period with the same class repeated twice a week to allow for time zone differences). Things are kept on a professional level which we try to teach the Cadets to maintain and take with them into Judges and in relations to other pilots. Does it always work? Does everyone who joins us like it? Do we allow everyone who wants to join us to stay? As the high rate of attrition would suggest, no. Those standards along with the things I have not listed were created from a few sources. One of which was the complaints incoming Cadets had about previous factions they were/are part of.

It seems many of the posts I have read seem to express that many people do not know what to make of us. I would counter the quote above by suggesting you try and join us. See how we work under that veil. Perhaps it will give better insight on how we operate and further, why we do not make public how we do these things.

"A few little things.

1. You talk of justice, yet your group is not tied to any house government. Justice without accountability is not justice.

2. The only other alternative (in terms of in game actions) is vigilantism. Are you vigilantes?

3. If you are vigilantes, then where are your vigilante actions? I don't see you acting on... well... anything, really.

Ah yes, that's right. No house will allow you to enforce law within their space, as a result of the pressure to ensure the law is accountable to the people.

My suggestion would be changing the nature of the group a little, and making it so they bring law to the lawless independant and edge systems, rather than hanging about in house space being kinda impotent. Perhaps you could be contracted by Zoners (most Zoner holdings are outside house space and are not subject to house law, but their own law instead) to enforce their local law around freeports.

The problem with that suggestion is ID limitations. The freelancer ID requires a bounty/employment prior to engaging a target, the needing to defend yourself...

I think the main issue with the faction is that it's kinda wafty. A faction based on an abstract concept (in this case justice) isn't one that's gonna have much to do aside from say words about said abstract concept.

In your case, I don't often see much by way of lecturing on the nature of law, order and justice... So essentially, you don't have any actual actions you can take at the moment and you're not even roleplaying your agenda and ideals in game. The only time I've heard any member of this group talking about justice, law and order, is in this thread. I normally just see your guys sitting silently over newark, doing not a whole lot."

I can't say I agree with the above statements but in answer to the three points at the top.

1) This statement both feels just clichéd and wrong. Of all people I'd think you would know this. Accountability is held by the people, not a House Government with this world. If it was, I would think there would be a much greater effort to keep "Secondary" players using an ID used by a "Primary" in check. After a year, I have seen multiple actions by secondary ships of both house and pirate that do not reflect the RP of the house but claim they are and very rarely do I see a primary group deal with Secondary's when it becomes a problem. If they are not being held accountable by their own Primary factions, who are they accountable too? In a RP perspective, if the government they are affiliated with is not dealing with them, then again, how can they claim they are part of it?

2) and 3) I think I have answered these by this point

The rather Judge Dredd thought aside, that concept is not in line with our goals nor would it be new, you have groups like that already.

Your statement on the Freelancer ID is news to me. There is nothing on it that says you can only engage to defend yourself or in pursuit of a bounty.

'€¢ Can fulfill bounty contract and escort other vessels.
'€¢ May not engage in piracy outside of a posted bounty contract.
'€¢ May treat trade vessels as combat targets in pursuit of a bounty contract.
'€¢ Cannot use any transports with more than 3,600 cargo.
Where is the part that says "may only engage in combat in pursuit of a bounty or to defend yourself"? There are ID's with such restrictions but I do not see it here.

In contrast, the pirate ID states

'€¢ Can demand cargo and credits from lawful and unlawful ships, and attack them if they do not comply.
'€¢ Cannot use any transports with more than 3,600 cargo.
Does that mean they are not allowed to engage accept under this condition or to defend themselves?

At the end of this, I see many complaints that are contradictory with one another and I am not sure how to answer those. It feels like jumping one way is wrong but then so is the other so which way is correct? We are here, we are not, we talk too little, we are spamming the local chat. Honestly those posts leave me rather confused.

To those that have been constructive in the criticism and suggests, I hope this has helped make clearer some of the more legitimate statements and questions that have been made/asked.

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