getting back on course or keeping it...

[Dab]

can you elaborate on what to apologize for?

I thought my post was fairly clear on this;
Being rude, aggressive, hostile, defiant, not living up to your supply duties. In-Roleplay I might add.

in that regard.... why can other factions be : rude, demanding, controlling
while you expect zoners to be ....: polite, supportive, respectful.

i have a few nice quotes of people in other factions who said that "being arseholes" is basicly their roleplay.

Some factions, rude, demanding, and controlling makes sense. While being rude and arrogant is the roleplay for some factions, like many Corsairs, I don't agree with "being arseholes" at all. I'm certainly not condoning them do such, or ignoring other people's gameplay in favor of their own.

But do realize the Zoners are not a military faction. They do not have a military, they are not a closely-bonded nation. They cannot stand up in a fight against others. You hold economic control, not military control. This was shown rather bluntly to you. You need to realize this. Your power is diplomacy and economics. That is why you need to be polite, supportive, respectful. It doesn't matter how many goods you deliver them, if you're rude and arrogant to them, they are going to dislike you, and eventually shoot you. This is what happened.

you do bring up a nice focus there that i guess might be the core of the problem some players have wth the zoner factions....
in your lengthy reply, you focussed very much on omicroners. - what you do not realize is that this faction does not mind having enemies - as it was kind of born in the wake of enemies. being paranoid - unforgiving and defensive is what its about.

the main question however is - does that ruin it for others?

I know the Omicroners don't mind having enemies. Okay, that's fine. But you need to realize that isn't what the Zoners are about. The single defining trait of that faction, and what the lore is heavily concentrated on, is being neutral. You're contradicting your own lore, and you wonder why you get problems? You wonder why even other Zoners dislike you? YES. It is ruining it for others. What one Zoner does affects all Zoners. That is why a Council existed. To keep a standard of behavior and diplomacy. Because when one Zoner/group screws up diplomacy, it screws up diplomacy for everyone.

And your paranoia in-RP is not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the paranoia and constant claims of conspiracy everywhere you pop up. People are sick of hearing it.

and if that is so - in what way does it affect others not to be able to roleplay their RP anymore when one faction choses not to be polite, supportive, respectful.

Have you really forgot the whole Corsair vs Zoner situation? I mean, really?

after that many replies - it might be the time to draw a picture of how zoners were preceived for a long time
- passive and kind of indifferent
- no "pvp" targets - but sometimes "targets"

- zoners were a faction that others could manipulate.
- zoners were sometimes attacked in the past ( long long past ) - but when the attackers felt like "it was enough" - peace was offered... and zoners always accepted.

- in the last years event - that last part sparked a lot of critizism WITHIN the official zoner factions. - peace was offered... and NOT accepted. - it was perceived as very rude - and ooRP.
- that decsion was made intentionally - the conflict was carried on beyond what the attackers wanted - peace was not offered... up to a point where the attacked ceased mostly due to the pointlessness.

- maybe it is that - which causes the problem. - zoners who do NOT submit and practicly become as "bad" as those attacking them seems / seemed "wrong" for many a players.

This is a prime example of your assumptions and holding onto an image of others rather than really paying attention to what they are actually saying. No one cares if you defend yourselves. That is a fiction you are creating to make yourselves feel better.

What people TRULY hate about the Zoners is the constant conspiracy claims, the constant complaining, the constant whining, the constant OOC arguments raised over RP actions of others.

Also the constant disregard for Zoner lore. You're are -not- acting like Zoners. People have shown infocards proving as much. Of COURSE you're getting problems.

If the GC and Corsair factions just randomly decided to start being nice with each other and cooperating, in contradiction to all their lore, don't you think we'd get both OORP and RP problems with other factions and players? Of course we would. This is what you're doing, only you're ignoring the problems you're creating and instead trying to blame them on everyone around you.

What you said, dab, might be reasonable in some way - but what i miss is some kind of multiperspective. - you say "zoners have to" - "omicroners have to" - and i totally miss what others have to do. - that is the main reason you are perceived as "anti" ( and we all remember that you tried to shape zoners when you played zoners yourself )

What others have to do? Well first, the entire topic of this thread is what the Zoners did and what they should do. You're now telling me I'm wrong for staying on topic. This is an example of what angers people about the Zoners. When we do as you ask, you say we're wrong, we did it wrong, that's not what you asked for, we're biased, it's a conspiracy, zonerzonerzonerzoner.

But okay, to answer your new question, others? What do they have to do? Be responsible, not hold onto assumptions, give people a chance to correct their problems.

The thing here is though, other factions have been pretty good at this. Omicroners have been notorious for NOT doing this. Considering I'm not the only person here saying that you screwed up should be enough for you to realize that maybe you did do something wrong? Hell, there are people completely uninvolved in the entire debacle that are saying you screwed up. Are you going to keep disregarding this? You asked the question, people have responded to it, and said why. You are now still disregarding their feedback. If you aren't going to listen to them, why are you asking the question?

As for my shaping the Zoners, which really isn't on topic at all. Yes. I shaped the Zoners. Why do you think the CoZ was created by Mal in the first place? Why do you think I joined it? Because it was able to shape the Zoners into a miniature community within Disco. One that had players that got along, got things accomplished, and managed to keep the delicate situation the Zoners were in from blowing up in our faces.

So take a look at the CoZ era Zoners, then the ZA era Zoners, then the post-ZA era Zoners. Which ones had the biggest drama, the most diplomatic scandles, wars, hostilities, in-fighting, etc? Then tell me who has screwed up the most here. For all the Zoner-hate I'm accused of having, I seem to recall a markedly lower number of RP and OORP conflicts between the Zoners and other factions during the time I was involved with the CoZ. Why? Because I stuck to Diplomacy and neutrality, rather than my guns. My Aquilon. How many fights did it get into while I was a Zoner? Two. Who was it against? Keepers and The Joker, who targeted me.

I remember being able to fly the thing into the Hessian Guard system, chat it up with them, grab some Blood Diamonds, then fly out to Crete, do the same thing, dropping off some food, Blood Diamonds still in my cargo, and leave again without a single shot fired, a single threat made. Why? Because I didn't start fights, I didn't act aggressive or rude. And for all the claims that the Corsair players hate the Omicroners, do you really think they hate you more than they hated me for a long time? Yet not once was my ship ever attacked by them. Combative posturing and big guns aren't a deterrent to war. That's what the Omicroners and ZA tried. Diplomacy, mutual respect, courtesy. That is a deterrent to war. That's what the CoZ tried. The latter worked.

I'm not trying to say you guys are failures. I'm trying to get you to realize that you are sourcing the problems you are faced with. You can't correct those problems until you recognize the cause of them.

lets sum up what the factions appear to be about:

TAZ:
- religious or semi religious preachers ( not quite zealots imo )
- idealists but also isolationists
- traders of ther truth, of commodities and information
- well connected throughout sirius - interconnected via personal and factionwide networks that allows them to operate in a very wide ZoI
- not too restrictive - but protective. there is a clear line whats their and whats everyones

OSI:
- traders based on contracts and individual trading
- the most "lawful" side of the zoners from my pov
- they are pragmatic and keep a neutrality by doing it mostly the junker way - stay below the radar... try not to mess up the "big" decisions
- it helps them to have a HQ in the core worlds

omicroners:
- defensive, paranoid, aggressive
- they deploy a military as the only zoner faction
- isolationists on bad terms with both neighbours ( BHG and corsairs )
- trade is mostly based on basic needs for an edgeworld - rather than the most profit for their members
- their ZoI is rather small, extending no further than slightly into the omega rim systems
- they know how valuable 74 is as a transit system and play that trump card ( or have been playing it )
OSI and TAZ mght add / correct me on my summary

so - the basic question was - does that harm the non-factionized zoners roleplay?

Yes. The Omicroners one does harm non-factionized Zoners. If Omicroners piss off the Corsairs, TAZ and OSI may (and did) manage to kee neutrality with them, though it'll usually cost them to do so.

But the indy Zoners will have a much much harder time doing so. They will get caught up in the diplomatic problems that are created. This was incredibly obvious during both the Zoner/Corsair fighting and the Zoner/BHG fighting, and even resulted in Bretonia being more strict on FP1.

You are the representatives of your faction. What you do effects everyone else. Indies can create a problem occasionally and not ruin everyone else's experience. Official factions do not get off that easily.

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