Let's Talk Fuel

[Barrier]

And for each of these, including fuel, there are ways to implement them with a minimal effect on the "arcadiness" of the game.

So then how would you actually implement fuel and other similar mechanics without impacting the arcade nature of the game too greatly?

After reading through the suggestions, my current favorites are those that add things without impinging on normal gameplay, unlike my original conceptualization:

• Fuel instead of ZOI: aka, ships can go outside of their normal zoi and do whatever they want, but they must be using fuel in those instances. This means that taskforces can operate far afield, but even if they bring an oiler, it can be targeted and destroyed, and then the ships are essentially dead meat unless they can land on a friendly base in hostile territory.
  
• Fuel cost for traversing unstable jump holes: this is a combination of multiple ideas, but basically unstable jump holes can be used with any amount of cargo, but require X amount of fuel. This means that there's still an effective cargo limit, but it's far more flexible than the current 650 cut-off.
  
• Fuel improves cruise speed: any time you have fuel, your cruise speed goes up by some marginal amount. This opens possibilities of using it tactically in fleet fights and interceptions, and of course adds a layer of min-maxing to long trade routes.
  

[TheSauron]

This thread is going to be a wonderful litmus test of who plays fighter-based unlawfuls and who does not.

Let's assume I have a bomber parked on Battlecruiser Santander and an ERP sesh scheduled in Shikoku. Like a proper unlawful High Roleplayer I make my way there without using lanes or gates, plotting my route through the Taus. How far do I get before my tank runs empty if I cruise the route? What if I thrust the route? What happens to me once I am out?

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One MD Admiral

[Lord Caedus]

And for each of these, including fuel, there are ways to implement them with a minimal effect on the "arcadiness" of the game.

So then how would you actually implement fuel and other similar mechanics without impacting the arcade nature of the game too greatly?

After reading through the suggestions, my current favorites are those that add things without impinging on normal gameplay, unlike my original conceptualization:

• Fuel instead of ZOI: aka, ships can go outside of their normal zoi and do whatever they want, but they must be using fuel in those instances. This means that taskforces can operate far afield, but even if they bring an oiler, it can be targeted and destroyed, and then the ships are essentially dead meat unless they can land on a friendly base in hostile territory.
  
• Fuel cost for traversing unstable jump holes: this is a combination of multiple ideas, but basically unstable jump holes can be used with any amount of cargo, but require X amount of fuel. This means that there's still an effective cargo limit, but it's far more flexible than the current 650 cut-off.
  
• Fuel improves cruise speed: any time you have fuel, your cruise speed goes up by some marginal amount. This opens possibilities of using it tactically in fleet fights and interceptions, and of course adds a layer of min-maxing to long trade routes.
  

Yeah no offense but this just screams "I only ever play factions that have nearly unlimited docking options." We don't need to be restricting the ability of players to move around and explore or find other players to interact with just to provide a very small inRP niche for fuel that is completely unnecessary. If you're looking for ways to reduce the absolutely insane profit rates then look at reducing profit on trade routes, or make ammo much more expensive than it currently is.

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[Ashyur]

how about this ? make fuel be automatically bought with no opt out, be expensive like 500k for ships with 3,5k or above ,combat ships will all be included, yet won't be used other than being a money sink if destroyed

[Nika]

And for each of these, including fuel, there are ways to implement them with a minimal effect on the "arcadiness" of the game.

So then how would you actually implement fuel and other similar mechanics without impacting the arcade nature of the game too greatly?

After reading through the suggestions, my current favorites are those that add things without impinging on normal gameplay, unlike my original conceptualization:

• Fuel instead of ZOI: aka, ships can go outside of their normal zoi and do whatever they want, but they must be using fuel in those instances. This means that taskforces can operate far afield, but even if they bring an oiler, it can be targeted and destroyed, and then the ships are essentially dead meat unless they can land on a friendly base in hostile territory.
  
• Fuel cost for traversing unstable jump holes: this is a combination of multiple ideas, but basically unstable jump holes can be used with any amount of cargo, but require X amount of fuel. This means that there's still an effective cargo limit, but it's far more flexible than the current 650 cut-off.
  
• Fuel improves cruise speed: any time you have fuel, your cruise speed goes up by some marginal amount. This opens possibilities of using it tactically in fleet fights and interceptions, and of course adds a layer of min-maxing to long trade routes.
  

Or just don't go through with this, any way to restrict players moving around is a horrible idea. Surprised you, of all people, came up with this - or got to post it.

[L1ght]

Lets not talk fuel, I like my Discovery - > Freelancer < - being -> Freelancer <- and I'm sure many people feel in a similar way.

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[Leeon26]

At least make a fuel storage hardpoint on snubs which instantly kills it when hit, without fuse.
Oh.. and don't forget to add mass for the fuel.

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[Haste]

At least make a fuel storage hardpoint on snubs which instantly kills it when hit, without fuse.
Oh.. and don't forget to add mass for the fuel.

I really wasn't feeling this whole fuel thing but now you've sold me on it, this is the future.

+2 weeks

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[The_Godslayer]

As for this idea that freelancer is just an arcade game, I just don't see it after running events and generally experiencing disco. I've done multiple conn brawls, which are ideal arcade environments: no rp requirement, just shoot, respawn, focus on the tactics. They were quite unpopular. More generally, why don't people just pew in conn all day every day if arcade shooting was this server's draw? You're a vet who remembers the NOrp server, which hardly had any involvement even when the main server was maxed at 200/200 during most prime hours.

The main draw of this mod is to experience the game that captured our hearts and minds back in 2003, and watch continuation for a story that left us abruptly. The main draw of this community is finding other people who are subject to this nostalgia. The main draw of this server and these forums is being able to tell your own Freelancer story. This place has many draws, whereas the norp server had many of the same, but not all of them, and no additional draws to make up the gap. Telling stories, stories of all kinds (usually main character stories, though), is what draws much of our main-stays to Discovery. You'll notice that a vast majority of number-go-up and pixel-kingdom players quit permanently the moment they get pirated, or their base gets broken, or even they are simply put into a situation where they have to roleplay to get the result they want. Werdi poking bases in Galileo and Mr. "I'll kill my own base so that you evil trolls don't get the satisfaction" comes to mind.

What you have suggested changes a fundamental aspect of the game: The ability to tell your own story. Introducing a fuel mechanic means you are forced to tell a fuel management story whenever you log into the game. You cannot tell an exploration story without telling a fuel management story. You cannot tell a conquest story without telling a fuel management story. You cannot tell a semi-trucking down the highway story without telling a fuel management story. Of course, running out of fuel stories are great fun, you can tell horror, suspense, drama, all kinds of stress can be conveyed. Fuel management stories, however, are boring, tedious, and completely uninteresting.

That is why I'm trying to think of more mechanics that actually add to the rp flavor. RP involvement is still what actually draws people are the main ingredient. Sure, there are other things they want to have at the same time, but RP as the baseline is necessary. Otherwise, we'd be back to 2008 clans who sweat to find the ideal loadout and just pew each other with the wide array of ships and weapons disco added. Fuel is just the low-hanging fruit, and like I mentioned, all the tools are in place to implement it. But I'm sure there are plenty of other things to consider - boarding, gravity, storage, investments, insurance, equipment mods, etc. etc. And for each of these, including fuel, there are ways to implement them with a minimal effect on the "arcadiness" of the game.

And, really, this paragraphs sends it home. This explains the negativity in the feedback, especially the stuff that hasn't been posted. I'll explain it to you in Nomad terms since I am the Nomad guy:

Nomads have roleplayed mind control, telepathy, sending visions, so on and so forth for years. Hell, more than a decade at this point. There is an important understanding when it comes to this kind of roleplay: It requires the participation of both parties. I could say that giving Nomads the ability to control your mouse, to flashbang you with images, to give your character a brain aneurism and kill you on the spot, to turn off your weapon groups and so on and so forth would add roleplay flavor. It would add stress, it would add involvement, it would add immersion.

I could say that if I was stupid. That experience would rarely be fun for both parties, only the one. What makes this aspect of Nomad roleplay a mainstay is that both parties are there for it. You aren't forced to go along with a mindgame roleplay. You aren't even forced to understand Nomad roleplay. You are well within your capabilities and rights to go "ouh, I got a headache when that alien wiggles, I sure can't understand whatever it's trying to say", and refuse to interact with the Nomad.

The addition of fuel undercuts the choice. You have no choice but to interact with the fuel. You are forced to, you always will be forced to because fuel is a central lynchpin of propulsion. Adding this forces everyone to roleplay how you want them to roleplay. Because the true main draw of this server isn't specifically roleplay, or space truck simulator, or number-go-up, or pixel fort, or any other myriad of lesser things you can point to. The main draw of this server, this community, and this modification for the game is "Doing your own thing". Thats why the norp server suffered. There was no foundation to impose limitations on yourself, because there was no role to play. Fly the strongest ship with the strongest guns, or you're throwing. You could not do your own thing because there was no thing to do. Also, there is a fairly large conn entourage, I'm not sure why you haven't met them yet.

Limiting the ability of people to do their own thing is going to be nothing but a wound to the server. As was the outcry with mass system deletion, and with jump hole connection deletion, and with the addition of mass, and the "Nerf or Nothin'™" balance mentality, you are directly attacking the ability of people to do their own thing with this idea. It, fundamentally, will force people to play how you want them to play. I can send you plenty of other examples that suffered due to that. Rainbow Six Siege comes directly to mind. Apex Legends next. Destiny 2, World of Warcraft, Diablo 4. These games suffered heavily and lost their community and popularity, some instantly, some over time, due to telling players "that's not how we want you to play the game", and not only removing the ability to do your own thing, but some even went as far as to add punishments for trying to do your own thing (hello again, mass).

The rules should be in place to help people do their own thing, to make it impossible for there to be a "this is the one thing you should do, anything else is frankly stupid", not to stop people from doing their thing. The mechanics should be there to give people more things to do, not to stop people from doing their thing. The addition of fuel in all the ways listed so far frankly shits on that basic concept.

Fuel instead of ZOI means you cannot take a silly trip and make silly memories with it. [KNF] chased a DTR- into Earhart and had to trek back through all of Gallia to get home because the exits were Zurich and I think somewhere in the Omegas. We had a grand ol' time with the suspense of seeing if Gallic Law was going to get on and tear us a new one. With fuel, we would have had to check the Earhart exits in the middle of chasing this DTR-, and when we saw that it was anywhere not directly on our borders, we would have stopped right there and logged off.

Fuel cost for traversing unstable jump holes means even your most basic Outcast raidlog to go to fight in Theta costs you. Not just for winning or losing, not repair costs and ammo costs, but just for playing the game. And that means that there's no case where logging on and doing something is better than staying home. Parking my Junker at Bornholm Depot, a favorite spot of mine due to the atmosphere of traveling between O7, O55, and Vespucci, suddenly becomes a detriment. I cannot go and enjoy the game without being punished for it.

Fuel improves cruise speed means if you don't play with fuel, you're gimping yourself compared to everyone else. It's the same problem that comes with a horribly dominant meta, you can choose to go off-meta, but that makes you a clown, you will be clowned, you will be punished for it, and frankly you will deserve it too. "Meta" is an acronym, it means Most Effective Tactic Available. There will always be a meta. The problem with this implementation, like any horribly dominant meta, is that it becomes the only effective tactic available. You take away people's ability to do their own thing.

In total, this idea is not fit for Discovery. It's really not fit for Freelancer unless you wanted to make it a survival-spacesim. And, at that point, what you have is, at its very core, not Freelancer. It's Starsector with a Freelancer paint job. This idea, in it's entirety, comes off as an announcement from both you, but also from development as a whole due to you having a yellowname, that "We will make you play how we want you to play, and you aren't allowed to play any other way".

I'm frankly surprised that there are less overtly hostile responses to this thread. Seems the community is either growing up, or giving up. Unfortunately more likely the second.

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I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.

"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"

[Leeon26]

At least make a fuel storage hardpoint on snubs which instantly kills it when hit, without fuse.
Oh.. and don't forget to add mass for the fuel.

I really wasn't feeling this whole fuel thing but now you've sold me on it, this is the future.

+2 weeks

Restrict fuel storage to the heaviest armor plating so outside ZOI combat is bound to high mass

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