How to make Discovery better?

[Baltar]

@ Strom: Nothing ... absolutely nothing ... in the rulebook requires membership with any faction. I don't know where you're getting this from ... as far as I can see you're pulling it out of thin air. Not to mention that its "your opinion" and not fact. I have an independent pirate who's got a Pirate ID and a Freelancer IFF ... there's absolutely NO faction affiliation with my pirate ... he's an "independent" and is not required to be a member of any faction whether official, unofficial or NPC. People have mentioned several ID's that are NOT affiliated with any faction. Yes you're required to mount an ID ... but the ID does NOT have to be a faction ID. Pirate ID, Trader ID, Mercenary ID, Smuggler ID, Terrorist ID, Freelancer ID ... etc ... they are ALL independents and have no faction affiliation ... NONE ... unless you choose to align yourself to one. Show me where in the rules that it states I've gotta join an NPC faction. The Freelancer IFF is not the same as a Freelancer ID either ... not to mention that the Freelancer ID is NOT a faction. Here's a couple of rules for you to chew on. Note that 6.9 says the ID overrides the rules if conflict arises. Pirate ID says you must either have either a faction IFF OR a Freelancer IFF. This implies that the Freelancer IFF is NOT a faction.

6.9 The individual ID cards may have restrictions and/or allowance that are not covered by these rules. In the event of conflict, the ID's override the rules.

6.4 Buying an ID does not automatically mean that player becomes part of appropriate player faction. The following IDs are not allowed for use unless the character is an accepted member of the official player faction that owns the ID : Coalition ID, NovaPG ID, Keeper ID, Wild ID, Colonial Remnant ID, Hellfire Legion ID, Phantom ID, Interspace Neuralnet Division ID.

[barrenwzste]

***Baltar***

Every ID is a faction ID. The Mercenary ID represents the Mercenary Faction. It isn't as organised or defined as the Bounty Hunter faction, but it is still a faction. Rule 6.4 simply states that just because you have the right faction ID doesn't mean you joined the Official Player Faction. That rule is to keep players from claiming official faction rights and status just because they have the applicable ID. It does not state that you don't have to join a faction. I'll just quote the part of my reply to Shryke where I prove the Freelancer ID is a faction ID. It should be obvious that it applies to all IDs, not just Freelancers.

Faction: a party or group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking
party spirit especially when marked by dissension

Party: A person or group taking one side of a question, dispute, or contest
A group of persons organized for the purpose of directing the policies of the government
A person or group participating in an action or affair

Group: A number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship

Freelancer: A person who acts independently without being affiliated with or authorised by an organization
A person who pursues a profession without a long-term commitment to any one employer

We'll start with freelancer and use the definition that least fits with what I intend to prove. So a freelancer is a person who acts independently without being affiliated with or authorised by an organization. Next we'll look at the definition of group. A group is a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship. There are many freelancers, so they are a number of individuals. And they have a unifying relationship, they all want the governments and factions to leave them alone to ply thier trade. That means we have a group of freelancers. A faction is a...group (as within a government) that is often contentious or self-seeking. Well, the freelancers are definately a group. They are contentious and self seeking. In short, they are a faction. I used Webster's Definitions for this, but if you want we could use the Wiki. They prove it even quicker

Now I'll bring in the applicable rules and tie it all together.

6.10 Player reputation and conduct must match player actions. For instance a player may not dock on a base belonging to the persons whom they are attacking or being attacked by.

6.9 The individual ID cards may have restrictions and/or allowance that are not covered by these rules. In the event of conflict, the ID's override the rules.

6.1 Every player must have an ID equipped on his or her ship.

1.1 Discovery Freelancer 24/7 RP (Discovery RP) is a ROLEPLAYING SERVER. Role playing is REQUIRED while playing here.

Ok. You have to have an ID mounted at all times, 6.1. You have to follow all restrictions of the ID, 6.10 & 6.9. You have to roleplay, 1.1. And the definition of faction dictates that all ID's are faction IDs. Therefore, by the rules, you have to join a faction. You have to roleplay as a member of that faction. Your roleplay of that member must be in keeping with the limits and restrictions of the faction and faction ID.


***Randomizator***

Stories that do not have to be approved as shows of good rp and keys for capships will not work. For example, I could post a wonderful story, six pages long, about how my Liberty Cruiser was hijacked by my Independat Hacker and his crew. How we then donned the crews uniforms and started flying the lanes demanding fines and contraband cargo. This story, wonderful as it may be, would lead to illegal role and gameplay. Without somebody to police the stories, the problem will just continue unchecked.

No capital ship is standard. The standard liberty ships are the Patriot and Defender types, and the the subsequant ships derived from them, excluding any that claim rare in the description. Ships aren't the only thing you control. You control the character, who controls multiple ships. Your ship doesn't speak with a funny accent. Your ship doesn't decide between being a freighter or fighter. Your character, and his faction, mores, ethics, ideals, and financial situation determines these things. Ships are the way we move about, trade, fight, and recognize one another, they are not the character. Even AI's can move to a different ship/body. What I said was not contradictory, because a special ship is not special if everybody has it. If everybody is flying capital ships and bombers, there is very little diversity. But if people are flying everything from starfleas to dreadnoughts, now that's diversity.


***Nooblet***

Your posted reasons for not being able to join a faction did not show a disabillity to join, but a disinclination. If you don't want to join a faction, that's ok. But don't say you cannot, as that is not true. So far the reasons I have seen for not joining a faction are as follows;

1) Inabillity to interact and cooperate with the leader.
2) Disinclination to fly any ship that cannot mount the top of the line weapons or has payload restrictions.
3) Time constraints
4) Disinclination to be punished for violations to roleplay
5) Unwilling to play a character of that faction

Now reasons three, four, and five are rediculous. If you have the time to roleplay with others when you are not in a faction, then you have the time to roleplay with others while in a faction. There are no duties that eat into your time anymore than being an independant does. And if you are unwilling to roleplay a Junker then don't get a Junker ID. If you do, and don't roleplay it according to the faction and faction ID you are going to be punished. To many people are tired of players not following rp and are snapping screenshots for the admins left and right.

Reasons one is a personal reason, and probably the only reason that's been quoted that is not an excuse. If you cannot get along with the faction leader and there is absolutely no chance of amicable roleplay within the player faction because of this, then yes, don't join. Remember, I've never once said that being an independant should be illegal.

Reason two is a mostly a mechanics issue, people are to concerned with pew pew, and not concerened enough with playing thier roles. If you are a pirate, living on the fringe, struggling to make repairs, and living from heist to heist, you aren't going to be flying top of the line ships using top of the line weapons. Not every character you have can be a pirate king or fleet admiral. As I've said, when you fly through a system and there are more capital ships and special/restricted ships, then there has been a breakdown in role play. When you design all your characters so as to use only the best, then you are violating the spirit of the game. You are designing roles to meet the mechanics you want, rather than using mechanics that fit the role.

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"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer

An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.

[Baltar]

Every ID is a faction ID. The Mercenary ID represents the Mercenary Faction. It isn't as organised or defined as the Bounty Hunter faction, but it is still a faction. I'll just quote the part of my reply to Shryke where I prove the Freelancer ID is a faction ID. It should be obvious that it applies to all IDs, not just Freelancers.

WRONGO my friend. Pirate ID is NOT a faction ID. The entire reason behind the generic ID's is because some people do NOT want to be affiliated with a specific faction. Why don't you login to the game ... go find and read EVERY ID on Discovery ... read them real close ... you might find that they say something quite different. The purpose behind these generic ID's was designed so people don't have to be locked down to one faction.

Mercenary is NOT a faction ID ... there's no such faction ... no NPCs ... no base ... no system ... nothing associated with mercenaries other than an ID ... there's not even a Mercenary IFF. Quit making crap up.

Now I'll bring in the applicable rules and tie it all together.
Ok. You have to have an ID mounted at all times, 6.1. You have to follow all restrictions of the ID, 6.10 & 6.9. You have to roleplay, 1.1. And the definition of faction dictates that all ID's are faction IDs. Therefore, by the rules, you have to join a faction. You have to roleplay as a member of that faction. Your roleplay of that member must be in keeping with the limits and restrictions of the faction and faction ID.

6.1 ... you gotta follow the restrictions of the ID ... that means you gotta go read the freaking ID bub. Pirate ID states that the bearer of a Pirate ID has chosen NOT to align himself with any faction.

What you're doing is throwing your own limited interpretation to the rules. These rules you've quoted tell you that you've gotta follow the restrictions of the ID itself. The generic ID's specifically state the opposite of what you're saying here.

[Shryke]

Don't bother Baltar. He doesn't understand the basic difference between a group and faction and is freely interchanging the words to suit his argument, as false as it is. This is the best approximation of Strom at the moment:

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[barrenwzste]

Nooblet, Baltar,

I am not confusing groups with factions. Factions are made up of groups. A group is a number of people with a unifying relationship. All freelancers want to be left alone to ply thier trade without interference. Thier common belief is a unifying relationship. That makes them a group. Since they are a group they fall within the definition of Faction. They are a faction. It's not an oxymoron, it's not a paradox. It is ironic that their unifying attribute, wanting to be left alone by factions, identifies them as a faction, but it is true none the less. They aren't an organized faction, and they don't have a leader, but that doesn't stop them from being a faction.

*For those new to the thread, my explanaition above is simplified. I posted the entire breakdown in an earlier post, using the complete definitions and the applicable rules.*

I've used the actual definitions, now I'll try using game mechanics. Each ID identifies a character as a part of a specific group. These groups have limits and regulations. These limits and regulations must be followed or you are breaking the rules. The names we give to these groups are irrelevant. Its the rights and restrictions inherent to the group that are germain. But whether we call these groups factions or bumtonsofsimilarthinkingorganisms the game is about these groups and thier relations with other groups. We play the part of a member within one of these bumtonsofsimilarthinkingorganisms.

So my points still stand, those who are playing roles at odds with thier groups ID are breaking the rules. It is easier to break rules in groups that are lightly monitored than it is in groups that are tightly monitored. More rules are being broken in groups that are lightly monitored than in groups that are tightly monitored. Since the problem is more prevalent in groups that are lightly monitored they should be more tightly monitored. This will result in a decrease in rules violations.

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"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer

An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.

[Baltar]

@ Shryke: Yeah ... I think he's just looking for a fight.

@ Strom: The only thing I see you doing here is a play on words ... sorry ... meaningless and only designed to incite arguments. Thus ... have a nice day ... good luck trying to file a sanction on someone who's NOT a faction member. I'm only sorry I fell into your trap.

[barrenwzste]

Baltar,

What play on words? Did I not use straight definitions? What clever twists or useages did I use? Were the game mechanics I showed not correct? Were the definitions I used for the words wrong? Are we not grouped, by mechanics and social structure within the game? Do we not have to follow the social and game mechanic rules of those groups? Is it not illegal to break both types of rules? If we break those rules are we not punished? You can drop the social model I showed over the game mechanics model and they fit perfectly. If that is so, how am I wrong?

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"Two things I know; Gravity sucks and Ion Storms blow. And that proves the universe is trying to kill us all" - Barren Waste, Captain of the Wasteland Wanderer

An approximation of my reaction when I see my next victim...er, these forums.

[Baltar]

What play on words? Did I not use straight definitions? What clever twists or useages did I use? Were the game mechanics I showed not correct? Were the definitions I used for the words wrong? Are we not grouped, by mechanics and social structure within the game? Do we not have to follow the social and game mechanic rules of those groups? Is it not illegal to break both types of rules? If we break those rules are we not punished? You can drop the social model I showed over the game mechanics model and they fit perfectly. If that is so, how am I wrong?

Done talking to you about this Strom. You got it in your head that you're right and nothing's gonna change that ... even if an admin hit you over the head with the rulebook you'd still say you're right.

I've got several "independent" characters that are factionless ... that means NOT affiliated with any faction. Do you understand what that means? Did I say it in plane English for you? No faction affiliated with these characters. Now ... what are you going to do about this? Apparently nothing sense there's no rule being broken (other than in your head.)

We have reputations ... that's built into the mechanics ... but reputations are different for each and every character ... no two are alike. Why? Because some people never leave Liberty and they never develop reputations with other factions outside Liberty. And their reputations within Liberty are not completely defined by their ID. There's a little bar in the rep grid ... you can have 100% green ... 80% green ... 10% green ... neutral ... 10% red ... 75% red ... 100% red. And your reputation is based on whether you attack them or their allies. If you attack Liberty Police ... your reputation with Liberty Police and everyone with reputations with the Liberty Police will drop (and drop at different rates depending on how close they are to the LPI.)

The rep engine is not a group, faction or anything else ... its your reputation with others ... and that's it. You cannot possibly make the rep grid perfect for your ID ... it just won't happen. Primarily because the rep engine is so complex that if you fix the rep with one group ... you've screwed up the rep with another. They're all intertwined in one form or another.

Now ... get off your high horse and go play the game.

[tansytansey]

I see you people have been sticking to the topic well. Good job.

Every ID is a faction ID.

Lolwut? Civilians are a faction now?

Definitions of faction on the Web:

* A group of people , especially within a political organization, who express a shared belief or opinion different from people who are not part of the group. ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/faction

<div align="right]
kthxbye.

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|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes &quot;Nighthawk&quot; Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[Randomizator]

Strom ! You are indeed a very stubborn person, but i am too. The rp application you are talking about already exists and is called a special rp request. When you want to pirate in a liberty cruiser, you need your story to be approved by admin. Why ? Because there is a rule which states that when a ship is red for an id on the ship and id chart, you need to have your story approved to get the ship. And the liberty navy is RED on the chart for all pirate factions. You said "Liberty Cruiser was hijacked by my Independat Hacker and his crew ... Without somebody to police the stories, the problem will just continue unchecked". The story of a Hacker stealing a Liberty cruiser would need to be admin approved one way or another, this is a rule. So what problem would continue ? Special rp stories are already policed.

No, what i am talking about is to force people to write an unchecked rp story to get a capship, but a capship corresponding to their id. That means that even if your capship is built by your faction, you'd have to write a story anyway. Please read my post better before replying next time.

Now, let's talk about the ships themselves. As you seem to like definitions, i'll define standard for you : Widely recognized or employed as a model of authority or excellence ; normal, familiar, or usual ; commonly used or supplied. That means that any line of ship often used and seen in Liberty is is a standard liberty ship. That gives us : Patriot and derivatives, Defender and derivatives, liberty gunboat, liberty cruiser, liberty dreadnought. The liberty assault battlecruiser is already less standard, even if it is smaller than the dreadnought, because it is supposed to be a secret attack weapon.

You are confusing the notions of power and standardness. A powerful ship like the liberty dreadnought can be standard, while a weaker ship like the scorpion gunboat can be rare. I can prove it with irl examples, let's take the russian navy : the sovremenny class destroyer is a large, powerful, and STANDARD warship, as it is produced and exportated in large numbers. The much smaller, weaker bora missile boat is not standard, because only two were built.

The characters now : you said "You control the character, who controls multiple ships". No, this is not true. You roleplay a character who controls his ship, but the only thing that represents you ingame is your ship, like it or not. This is a spaceship game before all the rest, not a fps. Also, why would you roleplay only one character with multiple ships ? Are you saying that players should have all their ships under one faction ? Because i can hardly imagine a corsair character flying both a titan and a storta...

Finally, let's talk about diversity. You wrote "What I said was not contradictory, because a special ship is not special if everybody has it. If everybody is flying capital ships and bombers, there is very little diversity. But if people are flying everything from starfleas to dreadnoughts, now that's diversity". You made the same mistake here. You are confusing the class of the ships with their diversity. If everbody flies capships and bombers, then yes, there is still diversity. There is five classes of capital ships, and each major power has at least 3 of these classes. And there is nearly 30 different bombers. And you forgot all the freighters and transports. Indeed, fighters increase diversity, but diversity will always be present as long as people fly ships from different factions, whatever their class may be. I think that you are only allergic to bombers and battleships, which is sometimes understandable.

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Revenge of the NPC Nomad lore!