When ever I encounter a guy smuggling stuff into Rheinland on my RM (Provided of course that they aren't smuggling real contraband), I normally tell him something like "Good, good, just don't try to take anything back to Liberty."
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' Wrote:The main point of an embargo in Freelancer must then be the creation of additional roleplaying opportunities.
Therefore the usefulness of an embargo must be judged by measuring the opportunities it creates against the opportunities that it destroys.
A blanket ban creates opportunities for lawfuls belonging to one House to attack all traders moving through a region.
But, a blanket ban also discourages those traders from ever coming through that region to begin with, so the net effect of success is : a region empty of traders, which is hardly a worthwhile goal when the point of multiplayer is to play with other people.
That reduces opportunities for those traders, especially for traders belonging to the House's ally who have legitimate reason to smuggle for the benefit of their ally.
Since pirates depend on traders, it also reduces opportunities for the pirates that might operate in that region.
Since it discourages import smuggling, it also reduces opportunities for the House being smuggled from, because the smugglers are less likely to be there to be pirated or interdicted.
If it is successful, a blanket ban is a policy that undermines itself by eliminating the reason for its existence and eliminating gameplay opportunities for everyone else.
While some have pointed out their ability to ignore such blanket embargoes, ineffective enforcement is no excuse for poor policy decisions. Poor policy decisions cannot create good results. At best they are simply less effective at creating bad results.
If the only positive benefits of a blanket embargo are imaginative reasons (and those are the only ones that have been submitted) and completely one-sided, while the negative impacts are real, practical disincentives created on the server, then it is a simple matter to adjust the imaginative "reasons" in such a way to enforce an export embargo and encourage smuggled imports, creating positive benefits for the House's allies, and the unlawful groups which depend on that trade for their entire gameplay experience, not to mention the benefits to the House's enemy which would have export trade to interdict that they might not have otherwise.
Creating a win-win-win-win scenario for your own House, your House's allied commercial interests, your House's enemy, and the pirates which prey on them all is superior to a win-lose-lose-lose scenario which only benefits one group that gets to blow up transports for imagined benefits while creating real, practical harm to every other interested group.
' Wrote:To put it in simpler terms, imports brought to your House by neutral or friendly traders from your enemy House should be welcomed, while exports from your House to your enemy House should be interdicted (unless the cargo is people or humanitarian supplies). Blanket bans on trade discourage the creation of roleplaying opportunities, and are ultimately destructive to server gameplay.
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I agree with Xoria very much on this point. I remember very clearly spending hours in Bering with Dusty interdicting trade using our Xenos, now that is impossible since Bering doesn't get used. It's also caused the LR to be funnelled into California, because piracy isn't worth a damn in Texas. The Liberty - Rheinland Embargo is flawed, simple as that. It affects too many people in a negative fashion. And as Xoria has stated only has positive implications for the lawfuls. There is no roleplay to be gained from interacting with the embargo on the unlawful side. Either side of the fence you're going to get shot.
There is no harm in admitting a flawed policy, no-one is going to think less of you, either RM or LN. A slight modification to the Embargo would increase RP opportunities on all sides and create a vibrant sector of play again.
Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.
To counter Del's point, I would say that the current embargos have almost zero effect due the fact that no one actually heeds them, as they're enforced so rarely as to be non-existant.
Heck, I don't even run war machines through Bering on the regular, I run slaves and cardamine, which are frowned on even more significantly. Let alone plutonium through Kusari to Bretonia.
Long story short, I embrace embargoes and the idea that they might actually be enforced. The notion that a pretty solid run between Liberty and Rheinland will need to be performed by myself with an extra three layers of caution due to wartime buildup in order to deliver a load of diamonds to a private collector is extremely attractive.
Otherwise, smuggling is merely determined by what you have in your cargo hold, not by the manner in which you're attempting to evade the law in order to deliver desired goods.
I think embargoes rock, what sucks is that they're not enforced (something I can easily understand, Liberty is such a madhouse of unending combat that there's almost no time to interdict smugglers before another call comes up of wave of outcast bombers/rogue GBs/A Gaian Rheinland Battleship/).
Dusty Lens Wrote:To counter Del's point, I would say that the current embargos have almost zero effect due the fact that no one actually heeds them, as they're enforced so rarely as to be non-existant.
To say that no one heeds the embargoes would be stereotypical. So as not to be hypocritical in that statement, I'll just speak for myself. In Duchess Shipping we pay very much heed to not only embargoes but also the more blurry aspects of interstellar diplomacy. The specifics aren't particularly relevant with the looming 4.85, but the point stands. I would venture to guess that most factions that deal with legal trading take very much heed of roleplayed circumstances. For example, ff there are no player characters that enforce one of the circumstances (an embargo, perhaps), it would be prudent for the trader to avoid being in a situation where the presence of such an enforcer would significantly affect that situation.
What I mean to point out is that the problem is not that people do not heed them, it is merely that they are not enforced. In turn, the lack of enforcement is a separate problem from the issue Xoria is bringing up. The first step would be to fix the concept of embargoes in Discovery -- a point on which I agree with Xoria -- and follow that fix up with solutions to the secondary problem of enforcement.
Perhaps a more concise manner of replying to Dusty's post would be to say that your argument is a direct result of the problem Xoria is describing.
Dusty Lens Wrote:I would say that the current embargos have almost zero effect
Xoria Wrote:Depending on the way they are constructed, embargoes may enhance roleplaying, or it may eliminate it entirely.
On a similar note, there seems to be an ongoing discussion about the Kusari-Bretonia embargo. I believe it has been more or less put on hold due to the potential for significantly affecting changes in 4.85, but it is relevant to this discussion. (Note that I do not know the specifics of this discussion as I believe it is a private one among the leadership of the Kusari factions, I only know a facet of it.)
Gate/Late Parts is not a commodity restricted by Kusari for export into Tau, but it seems to only barely escape the list. The Gate and Trade Lane Construction between Tau-31 and into Tau-23 is sponsored by BMM and very favorable to Bretonian interests. Bretonian expansion into Tau-23 threatens Kusari as much as it enroaches upon Outcast space and the reason for the conflict between BMM and the Cali Outcasts.
If Kusari allows white-box trade through Kusari space to Tau-23, they would be implicitly fueling Bretonian expansion. It would, in the long run, be more harmful to Kusari than allowing military materials to pass to Bretonia. Short-term, the Outcasts might very well shift focus from BMM assets to the white-box shipments sponsored by Kusari or even directly increase violent pressure on Kusari in an attempt to force Kusari to strengthen and widen their embargo.
This issue is being handled competently by the Kusarians, I trust, and I do not mean to bring it up for debate here. I mean to point out that the Rheinlanders and Libertonians should follow suit in how they handle their embargoes. Many issues need careful deliberation, not the hasty classification the current embargo reeks of, bluntly but not offensively meant.
Dusty Lens Wrote:I think embargoes rock, what sucks is that they're not enforced (something I can easily understand, Liberty is such a madhouse of unending combat that there's almost no time to interdict smugglers before another call comes up of wave of outcast bombers/rogue GBs/A Gaian Rheinland Battleship/).
Embargoes might be a decent, if a bit indirect, answer to this problem. If the Liberty Navy began focusing on patroling the Liberty-Rheinland borders, as would be a natural course of action considering the current rising hostility therebetween, the pirate factions would have new targets to exploit.
If Liberty sees an asset as worth securing and sends out a detachment to do so, as Xoria described, pirates would likely consider that asset worth capturing, or at least attacking. More exciting than staring at lanes and less pointless than furballs around Manhattan, in my opinion. It might require a bit coordination between hostile factions, but that should only make things more fun.
Now I can only hope this post was worth more than a measly two cents.
The embargos between Liberty and Rhineland killed a large part of my former RP trade runs on my Synth Foods traders.
Since I role play lawful traders I dont even attempt to carry cargos between those houses that go against the embargo. As a result I rarely go between them.
But then I never have been one to force my idea of RP onto others so you house authorities keep doing as you will and Ill just keep trying to RP in what youve left me.
Maybe its time to dump the Synth Foods ship and create a Police IFFed and Trader IDed Train.
I pretty much agree with Xoria. A House at war (lets call it House A) should be worried about traders exporting into the enemy House (House B), not so much about importing in from that House. Generally the import is something which sells well, implying that it's something which House A very much needs or wants, and more than likely House B is the primary producer of said product. Without traders 'smuggling' that product past the embargo of House B, House A would be hurting for their lack of <insert commodity here>.
I expect this will be a major issue in 4.85, especially since Xoria is the one bringing it up. Trade routes are supposed to be longer and require multiple stops in multiple Houses. If every House has an embargo on both exports and imports, the possible routes for a trader are limited. Liberty to Bretonia to Rhineland to Kusari to Liberty, or Liberty to Kusari to Rhineland to Bretonia to Liberty. Neither of these routes are particularly in-RP for a Libertonian sympathizer. As Xoria mentioned earlier, Liberty to Kusari to Bretonia to Liberty would be a better choice.
Question that arises: How the hell people get past the necessary hassle to acquire the stuff in the first place, while I can even imagine smugglers getting their hands on some deviated materials due to corruption, but Gateway??? That makes as much sense as an LN war ship landing on a Rheinland base and being allowed out without raising any eyebrows.
Also, about killing RP. Most of the time I've personally disrupted trading going out of Rheinland space I was met with a complete ooRP sentiment (not exactly the response) towards it. It was not that traders in character were upset about it, but players were upset because we were messing up their credits/minute ratio while forcing them to stop and actually speak to us, be it in RP or whatever. They just didn't care.
The way I see it, it's bad enough for people to try and take away from the House any valuables to the enemy in a time of war, but military equipment is yes, very profitable, but also very dumb if you're waving them right in front of that House's forces. The fact that people actually allow RM to spot them carrying military vehicles towards Liberty suggests either ignorance (it happens and it's common) or complete lack of interest in the RP going on with the war between the two Houses.
If people were indeed smuggling military vehicles from Rheinland to Liberty, the first thing they should do if an encounter with the RM was unavoidable was to dump all cargo and fly away from it, with the hope that the RM personnel won't notice it. That alone would be enough in RP reason for RM pilots to come guns blazing and destroy the ship, but server/rule mechanics (fortunatelly and unfortunatelly) disallow it. Perhaps otherwise that would open enough room for a more convincing reaction from traders.
The way I see it, anything that brings the traders to interact with the "fighters" can only open up room for more RP?ng opportunities. But as with everything, it really depends on both sides interacting.
EDIT: Also, point of matter. The whole argument is somewhat flawed. If both nations were indeed at war I could accept the argument that ANY materials coming in would be welcomed. But also, these materials wouldn't be paid for, either the people bringing those in would have acquired those illegally (or stolen them from the other side) or they would be killed coming in and the goods would be appropriated.
The embargo is not meant to avoid goods from coming in or out, but capital from circulating INTO the other nation. With legit trading, while the goods are indeed coming in, the money to pay for them is going back to the source. So, by taking legit trading from Liberty, Rheinland is financing its war machine which will eventually be used against it and vice-versa.
' Wrote:Maybe its time to dump the Synth Foods ship and create a Police IFFed and Trader IDed Train.
Hmpf, far to true to be funny, i hate them all together.
The hole embargo thing is simply to give the lawfulls something to shoot at, each house should make a verry small list of illegalized goods (for example Mil. Vehicles vs. luxury goods), and leave it that way.
I think Athenian hit one of the problems on the head. The police of navy need to be able to think outside their guns, as well as the traders. Instead of making a blanket embargo, looking into faction affiliation, origin of the character, and the like plays a big role. Most of the people who enforce embargoes don't take this into account, and it is very detrimental.
The second problem was brought up by Derkylos. At the present, there is no incentive to actually play Police and RP the encounters. Instead, most people go "Oh, I'll get my big-bad Challenger and get those smugglers good, then go get the Kusari!" No offense to the BAF, that is, it's just what is happening. This is very apparent in Bretonia, as the BAF has an upwards of 70 members (Says rumors), while the BPA has 9 or so.
' Wrote:To counter Del's point, I would say that the current embargos have almost zero effect due the fact that no one actually heeds them, as they're enforced so rarely as to be non-existant.
Which is the third problem. We actually need to enforce the embargo for the above two things to occur...
EDIT: And I might follow suit with my Gateway, Vero...
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
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