(04-23-2020, 10:50 PM)ONIKS Wrote: There were no major battles on a planetside territory of Gallia. Council did some of that stuff but not a 'full-blown bombardment annihilation' so I don't know why people say it's "war-torn". There is huge political instability, Enclave, Outcasts and drop in wine quality but damage for economy? Not really.
Gallia is "War torn" by a loose definition, fighting politically over the remainder of Gallia, some loyal to the king that started all this, some not, I don't have much issue with Gallia, it's playerbase deserved a better end to the war, and a better written storyline, but what happened to their house post-war makes far more sense than what's happening to Devtonia, Economically I don't think anything happened to Gallia really, they gained more territory and lost some ships, not a huge deal.
However this thread is mostly about the crazy crap that's happening in Bretonia, I had a brief mention of Gallia because I think Bertonia would've desolved into the political instability state that Gallia did, however in a more hostile form.
Yup I sympathize. At the same time, all of that is why a roleplay/faction war system should be devised and laid out.
There's so many details that can be filled in on a bit more within the game. It would get people on the same page as much as possible.
As to Bretonia, they have taken the opportunity to get out of the bunkers for the last 8 months. Now, the Imperial thing was a Devmiralty conspiracy right from the start. It was planned for a while and it seems a lot of the parties involved went along with it. After this chapter is finished though, we have a chance to propel the story in different ways. Hopefully with more player driven outlets and open ended events. No one cares if we have to wait a few days for an update after a battle, if it reflects the successful efforts of the players. I'm ok with either side winning or losing in a real battle, if its a real outcome that got people to really try. The point is to get people on and applying themselves, not only present one story.
This is why I'd like to see more added to what we value in the game, and do stuff with that. Leeds being destroyed denies its value as use for industry and resources. But how do we measure that? How do we systemize it so other planets could have value, so we know what it means the next time a planet is captured, or bombarded.
Obviously they can't mine Leeds anymore, and it would be like mining a giant graveyard.
The idea I put forward was to make it so each faction like a house (anyone with real territory) make use of 'points' incurred by the amount of planets/moons/asteroids they claim in their territory. Each faction could legit rebuild slowly by simply maintaining their claims, and using their monthly points to 'manufacture' static cap bases from shipyards, that would be mortal solars (handled dev-side).
So Bretonia would get X points from all of the planets/bodies in its borders (like 'industrial points'), and basically create another game currency to use on expendable assets. A house could save and spend its points each month for more ships to rebuild is fleet (one that could be moved by devs upon weekly or bi-weekly requests from OF's, to hotspots or for invasions).
The same could work for the Enclave. They have a small territory with several planets and moons. It is a smaller territory, but could slowly save and spend on new capital ships (ones that in all fairness could be taken out like a POB). In theory, unless kept in a safe area, ships could be earned as they are lost. Or built up for something special. And for smaller factions, buying such 'industrial points' from those with some to spare (like bigger houses not at war) would be possible. Could they find such assistance?
I'm all for maintaining an ongoing story arc, but I'm also all for a system that lets players push their own at the same time. Houses could really be counting their points, keeping up their claims on their resources, and using them to build a useable fleet. That's bound to also let the details start to be standardized by achievements made. If Bretonia has no problem keeping its disputed areas, they will rebuild faster. If more give them trouble, it could slow them down. That would become part of the name of the game.
But, it would require some regular moves at regular intervals at least, and something to help factions stake claims on planets/moons, like a challenge system, or player built WP. The main thing we'd need is a forum readable system GM's can use to make things happen in an open way. Like a chart, showing what is worth what, and who has a solid claim, and who the point goes to. If Bretonia had 4 planets and 6 moons, equaling 14 Industrial points, they could spend those by publicaly posting to a GM forum that we'd all see. So if 14 points gets you 2 battleships and a cruiser (static npc base to be placed in the game), everyone would know exactly how fast Bretonia is rebuilding its fleet. Their enemies would also know if they can destroy 1 of their existing battleship bases before then, they really only gain 1 battleship. House governments handle all of that, but it would create a much more standardized RP game and much more immersion at the lower levels of activity.
Invasions, losing territory, and wars in general wouldn't happen until the work had been put into it via the fair opportunities any major faction could use (upkeep of the warships, keeping them in hot zones, keeping enemy bases/WP's away from house planets/moons so they keep their industrial power up). This system would work with any of the houses! Now that's getting real!
"The question is, would this be more fun than what we have now and what is currently planned? Why would it? Or why not?"
To follow up with this interesting question by Thunderer, I believe it would be far more fun than what's currently planned, what is currently planned is a fixed line that the playerbase cannot change, it will happen either way and barely fits within the realm of realism or logic, which as a roleplayer I have a lot of issue with.
The reason I believe Bretonia desolving into a lawless state where it's fighting amongst itself would be far more interesting and fun to roleplay and far more fun gameplay wise, is what happens in game will matter, they would be fighting for the very future of what happens to their home obliterated by war and fighting for a change so this never happens again, or fighting for queen and country.
An alternative storyline would be Liberty REALISTICALLY responding to being told they can't bring their people home from their ship wrecks and entering Bretonia to bring those wrecks home by force, they would never put up with that, or possibly in the lieu of doing so, they start taking the scraps of bretonia for themselves, leading to a Bretonian uprising against the Libertonian Government that wanted their dues payed far before the broken house was ready to cash out.
Either way it would be far better than what was currently happening and I think the playerbase would enjoy it more, even if some think they wouldn't. At the end of the day I don't know, i'm just saying the current fixed route is nuts at best.
(04-23-2020, 11:00 PM)Binski Wrote: Yup I sympathize. At the same time, all of that is why a roleplay/faction war system should be devised and laid out.
There's so many details that can be filled in on a bit more within the game. It would get people on the same page as much as possible.
As to Bretonia, they have taken the opportunity to get out of the bunkers for the last 8 months. Now, the Imperial thing was a Devmiralty conspiracy right from the start. It was planned for a while and it seems a lot of the parties involved went along with it. After this chapter is finished though, we have a chance to propel the story in different ways. Hopefully with more player driven outlets and open ended events. No one cares if we have to wait a few days for an update after a battle, if it reflects the successful efforts of the players. I'm ok with either side winning or losing in a real battle, if its a real outcome that got people to really try. The point is to get people on and applying themselves, not only present one story.
This is why I'd like to see more added to what we value in the game, and do stuff with that. Leeds being destroyed denies its value as use for industry and resources. But how do we measure that? How do we systemize it so other planets could have value, so we know what it means the next time a planet is captured, or bombarded.
Obviously they can't mine Leeds anymore, and it would be like mining a giant graveyard.
The idea I put forward was to make it so each faction like a house (anyone with real territory) make use of 'points' incurred by the amount of planets/moons/asteroids they claim in their territory. Each faction could legit rebuild slowly by simply maintaining their claims, and using their monthly points to 'manufacture' static cap bases from shipyards, that would be mortal solars (handled dev-side).
So Bretonia would get X points from all of the planets/bodies in its borders (like 'industrial points'), and basically create another game currency to use on expendable assets. A house could save and spend its points each month for more ships to rebuild is fleet (one that could be moved by devs upon weekly or bi-weekly requests from OF's, to hotspots or for invasions).
The same could work for the Enclave. They have a small territory with several planets and moons. It is a smaller territory, but could slowly save and spend on new capital ships (ones that in all fairness could be taken out like a POB). In theory, unless kept in a safe area, ships could be earned as they are lost. Or built up for something special. And for smaller factions, buying such 'industrial points' from those with some to spare (like bigger houses not at war) would be possible. Could they find such assistance?
I'm all for maintaining an ongoing story arc, but I'm also all for a system that lets players push their own at the same time. Houses could really be counting their points, keeping up their claims on their resources, and using them to build a useable fleet. That's bound to also let the details start to be standardized by achievements made. If Bretonia has no problem keeping its disputed areas, they will rebuild faster. If more give them trouble, it could slow them down. That would become part of the name of the game.
But, it would require some regular moves at regular intervals at least, and something to help factions stake claims on planets/moons, like a challenge system, or player built WP. The main thing we'd need is a forum readable system GM's can use to make things happen in an open way. Like a chart, showing what is worth what, and who has a solid claim, and who the point goes to. If Bretonia had 4 planets and 6 moons, equaling 14 Industrial points, they could spend those by publicaly posting to a GM forum that we'd all see. So if 14 points gets you 2 battleships and a cruiser (static npc base to be placed in the game), everyone would know exactly how fast Bretonia is rebuilding its fleet. Their enemies would also know if they can destroy 1 of their existing battleship bases before then, they really only gain 1 battleship. House governments handle all of that, but it would create a much more standardized RP game and much more immersion at the lower levels of activity.
Invasions, losing territory, and wars in general wouldn't happen until the work had been put into it via the fair opportunities any major faction could use (upkeep of the warships, keeping them in hot zones, keeping enemy bases/WP's away from house planets/moons so they keep their industrial power up). This system would work with any of the houses! Now that's getting real!
(04-23-2020, 11:01 PM)Hemlocke Wrote: "The question is, would this be more fun than what we have now and what is currently planned? Why would it? Or why not?"
To follow up with this interesting question by Thunderer, I believe it would be far more fun than what's currently planned, what is currently planned is a fixed line that the playerbase cannot change, it will happen either way and barely fits within the realm of realism or logic, which as a roleplayer I have a lot of issue with.
The reason I believe Bretonia desolving into a lawless state where it's fighting amongst itself would be far more interesting and fun to roleplay and far more fun gameplay wise, is what happens in game will matter, they would be fighting for the very future of what happens to their home obliterated by war and fighting for a change so this never happens again, or fighting for queen and country.
An alternative storyline would be Liberty REALISTICALLY responding to being told they can't bring their people home from their ship wrecks and entering Bretonia to bring those wrecks home by force, they would never put up with that, or possibly in the lieu of doing so, they start taking the scraps of bretonia for themselves, leading to a Bretonian uprising against the Libertonian Government that wanted their dues payed far before the broken house was ready to cash out.
Either way it would be far better than what was currently happening and I think the playerbase would enjoy it more, even if some think they wouldn't. At the end of the day I don't know, i'm just saying the current fixed route is nuts at best.
Heh well under my 'dream' system, a house could wind up semi lawless. If they had enough enemies, not many defenders, they could lose all of their NPC capships, and risk losing claim to most of their space beyond the trade lanes and capital planets. If we had a 'push by weight' system, houses would remain as strong as their player base. Any small faction that did become 'diminished' could be re-inflated at any time by the right player efforts. Imagine Blood Dragon battleships cropping up around Kusari, earned by the players, and siege-able. And, they could be used to claim government planets so the points would go to the Dragons, who do have a shipyard.
It would be nice if a House group could play along to any situation and decide to send a few of its warships into a border system to claim territory or to secure routes/jumpgates. If Liberty had these, they'd surely have sent ships into Hudson and Bering by now. If we had that level of assets use available to the players, and all followed the same limits, many stories would write themselves after things got kicked off. Not to mention, it creates some purpose, and channels player activity into real progress. Players will work for it! I know I would! I'd be very interested to see Liberty do something like that, or Bretonia, and see how they fair, see what it causes. Real situations mean the need for real jobs too, real scouts/guards/intelligence gathering, real supply needs, etc. Real missions!
(04-23-2020, 10:11 PM)The Only Hokan Wrote: I'm going to ask for specifics, just because I would like to know them.
I don't want to throw my 50 pence in.
I hoped you wouldn't, but alright, here it is... I'll read the entire wall of text again because of something that isn't even important and summarize them here. But oh well, not much better things to do during the state of emergency, right? Sorry, I am a very lazy person and naturally, I hate when someone asks me to invest effort, but because you insist Sir, I shall!
Firstly, the OP doesn't name the source from where the supposedly "stupidest thing they have ever heard" comes from. Who said that? Where? Markam maybe? The writing style reminds me of his. On Discord?
The OP says that the unnamed source said that Bretonia will not rebuild. However, I don't agree. I think the unnamed source is saying that Bretonia will rebuild itself in a different fashion than it used to be. Where did the unnamed source get the idea that Bretonia's rebuilding is not going to last long, I don't know. According to Kaze, a developer, about 25 years would be realistic for Bretonia's economy to completely recover. However, it will take centuries to overcome the demographic catastrophe that was caused by the loss of over a third of the population.
The OP mentions that the gold reserves of Dublin have been depleted, but this is the first time I have heard this. Maybe they indeed have, but sadly we will never know if this is true, because the OP doesn't name the source of this assumption.
The OP mentioned that Bretonian citizens would go radical over the loss of Leeds. What does this mean? Radical = revolutionary? Rebellious? Possibly. Some certainly would. However, the war was won. One could also argue that they could be jubilant because they are still alive and that their lives are probably going to keep improving from now on. Especially those that survived Leeds and no longer have to live on that godforsaken hell of a planet, but rather on a fairly pleasant resort-level world of Exeter/Gran Canaria. Perhaps they would want to sympathize with the Zoner/Coalition/Corsair population of Exeter, but would they let them? Those Bretonians have just stolen their homes. The Bretonians may wish to be friends, but the Zoners don't, they are angry. And the Bretonians aren't going anywhere else -- because they have nowhere else to go. Leeds is no more, New London is overpopulated, Nottingham/Sprague is a desert that needs to be better developed before it can accommodate more people and Cambridge has anti-population laws so it would retain its maximum food production output to import to New London, Nottingham and the rest of Sirius. These laws have already been stretched to the limit and the planet is producing less food than ever because it has, in fact, received a few waves of refugees, as many as it could. More people on the planet doesn't only mean more mouths to feed, it also means more farming fields to be converted into urban land, factories or just too polluted for crops.
The ozone layer of Planet New London was likely not damaged by the bombardment. A news article available on Gallic bases, called "A New Weapon Against Bretonian Resistance", mentions that the atmosphere reduces the effect of Warwolf cannons, hence the Triumph was purposefully developed to have VTOL thrusters allowing it to fly below 5000 meters above ground, thus bypassing the atmosphere. The GRN wanted this attack to be effective, so they would not be flying at much above 5000 meters during the attack, if above at all. Seemed like commercial airplane height in that event, though.
The OP mentions that the attack on New London would leave radiation behind. Why so? What is the source of this radiation? Does the OP think electromagnetic radiation (lasers, in other words) is the same as radioactivity? Physics says it is not. Perhaps it is the warships that fell down together with their generators and possibly nuclear ordnance? This would be more understandable, but having in mind that no armament used in Sirius, except nuclear mines, is said to be radioactive, I am not sure that this would cause more radiation than the nuclear tests, the nuclear plant accidents and the nuclear waste that we have and have had here on Earth. I think that the direct damage from falling wreckages, which resemble meteors, and the explosions of their ordnance, would be greater, but not as permanent.
The OP says that New London would be uninhabitable, but doesn't name a reason. Perhaps the above was supposed to be the reason? This is a moot point because we don't have confirmed data on what damage planetary bombardment actually causes, except a CNS news article posted by I believe Unseelie, in the CNS news reports section on the forums. This news article says that the bombardment cost about 600 million (or 300, not sure) Bretonian lives and much material damage. This is a lot, but having in mind that New London's population was about 15 billion at the time, it is proportionally a lot less than Germany lost in WWII, so I don't think that this is a good comparison. Additionally, I believe only 3 cities were bombed on New London, while in WWII Germany most cities were bombed. We are forgetting that this bombardment only lasted for a couple of hours, while Leeds took a week. The damage done is great, but I believe that it has been exaggerated by Bretonian propaganda that aims to secure foreign aid and display Gauls as evil. I believe that the worst is yet to come as all those wrecks in orbit start falling down unless they are moved away. Some of them may be too large to burn out in the atmosphere. This will likely not kill many people directly, but it may severely reduce the planet's population and economic output. If you ask me, I'd rather not have my house or my company's HQ on a place where an asteroid is very likely to fall on top of it. I'll move to some other planet instead.
There have never been two mining stations in Dublin. There has always only been one, Graves Station. It still stands and hasn't been attacked during the war. Why? I don't know. I guess planets were more important. It has explosive mines around too, and according to Battleship Hood, mines and asteroids are a bad combination for aggressive warfare involving capital ships. Bretonia once made this mistake and Gallia learned from it, I suppose.
Mollies and Corsairs wreaking havoc implies Mollies and Corsairs being together. However, they hate each other more than they hate Bretonia because the Corsairs did to Planet Cork, a former Molly colony in Poole, the same thing that Gallia did to Planet Leeds. The British have historically shown quite a tendency towards the "divide and conquer" strategy, so I suppose that Mollies and Corsairs would be wreaking havoc on each other equally.
I don't understand the persistence in the usage of the term "Devtonia". Why is it still being used? Isn't Lanakov himself the chairman of the devteam now? Lanakov is at the head of the Gallic Confederation, he is French iRL and he serves the Marine Nationale iRL. He is the last person who one can call "Devtonia". Or perhaps the quotes were supposed to indicate sarcasm? Sure, some members of the devteam are in some Bretonian factions, but some other are in some other factions, yet the devteam is not being accused of bias towards those other factions. Perhaps it is because Bretonia has won the war? Firstly, this was scheduled to happen years earlier, before the current devteam was the devteam. Secondly, for example, the Red Hessians, despite being a faction of pirates with no considerable population, somehow have a fleet of battleships and were able to conquer a system from Rheinland, a House, and keep it, at the same time keeping the Corsairs at bay in the Omegas and fighting for Aland in Nottingham/Omega-3. Or the Coalition, which managed to destroy a Bretonian fleet, the Stirling's, with an invisible fleet without any representation by an NPC battleship base. Meanwhile, Bretonia lost nearly half of its population and only won the war thanks to its ally, Liberty. Why is there no Dev Hessia, Devalition or Deverty, but only Devtonia? Is it because the Hessians did not win at Aland like they did in Dresden? Should all factions only win, or only lose? Have the Red Hessians or the Coalition ever lost anything in the history of Discovery? I am sorry if this seems like a personal jab, but I am only using the Hessians and the Coalition as examples, as they are the first factions I can think of that have not ever had any notable losses.
I agree that the Coalition could quite easily take the system of Exeter now, with the invisible fleet with which they destroyed the Stirling Fleet, unless Bretonia also has an invisible fleet of its own in Exeter. However, I don't agree that they could take the planet easily, let alone that the planetary resistance is relevant. Before the invasion, the population of Gran Canaria was likely over 500,000, but no more than 1 million, according to the old infocard. According to a rumour from a character who you can meet at the cargo dealer's, there are over 1 million Bretonian soldiers on the planet. If the number of soldiers outnumbers the civilian population, then I believe insurrection is impossible. Refugees from Leeds and other planets have since arrived on Exeter and its infocard says that about 2.5 million people currently live there. According to this I assume that most are Bretonian. For a successful insurrection, one would need the majority of the population to be Anti-Bretonian, not the minority. One could argue that 1 million are too many soldiers. The population of New London is about 14 billion. If we assume that 1% are soldiers, then New London will have about 140 million soldiers. One could also argue that such a high military presence is unnecessary, but Kaze said that these soldiers were not sent only to conquer the planet, but also protect it from a possible Corsair invasion. Crete has a population of about 600 million, so if 1% are soldiers, they will have 6 million soldiers.
It is not Sons of Canaria, but the Gran Canarian Army (GCA). The faction is led by @Backo. It is a very nice faction, but sadly, they haven't been very active lately. According to the OP's thread, I assume they would like joining. They should contact Vasko if they want to. Besides being utterly belligerent towards literally everyone around him, including dolphins from the Black Sea which he sells on the black market, Vasko is a great dude.
Hessians again? Why are they always being considered a threat? Because Wesker is good at PvP? Should PvP determine the flow of the storyline? Would this not cause the death of sportsmanship, as every faction will only play to win in that case, and not to merely have fun? Do we want this?
Although I agree with the OP's assumption that Bretonia should not be able to support the Rheinland Empire in its civil war, as I myself don't know how it would, I disagree with the OP's claim that they are neutral and unbiased. The OP's post is full of caps lock usage, has a couple of swear words and uses the word "Devtonia" for a number of times without a justified basis. I believe that the post is too emotional to not be biased and although I agree that it is not biased towards any faction, I think that it is biased against Bretonia.
My opinion is that bad things happen and good things happen. But I don't think that only bad things should happen to some factions, while only good things happen to other factions. The title of this thread is "Can We Get Real" and I think that reality is neither black nor white, but rather grey.
I also think that we should not be so attached to pixel objects to call them "assets", let alone use caps lock, swear words or bash other real people over them. I think that we should instead try to make this thing fun. Work together to make a better story that will captivate our imagination and provide an immersive experience, or simply think of what would be fun, and then invent a realistic and justifiable story arc that will make it happen. Is kicking one of the Four Houses until it is dead a good and fun story, or should we make something else instead?
Finally, I most certainly don't think that the new devteam should be bashed over something the previous devteam has done. Give them time, they can't change everything in a day.
@"The Only Hokan" You seemed like someone who likes reading walls of text, so here, I wrote one for your pleasure. Worry not, I passed an exam earlier today and don't have much better things to do, so no time was wasted. I hope that you are content with it
(04-23-2020, 11:01 PM)Hemlocke Wrote: they would be fighting for the very future of what happens to their home obliterated by war and fighting for a change so this never happens again, or fighting for queen and country.
But this is what Bretonia has been doing for the last 10 years. As someone who has been playing in Bretonia for a good part of these, I want something different.
(04-23-2020, 11:01 PM)Hemlocke Wrote: a change
That is what I want and what most veteran Bretonian players have expressed that they wanted.
Aland is what happens when you combine ooRP hatred with the storyline. There was personal friction between Justin (and some others) and Wesker (plus his clique) at the time. But retcons are bad and I'd rather keep it as a monument to future devteams of how not to write the story, than retcon it.
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