5.2.0.9

[Kauket]

I noticed the changes during the event. My takeaway is that making things easier to hit as a welcome addition for those of us who struggle with aim. Yeah, I can get hit more easily now, but I don't feel like that's particularly different from good players being able to hit me before. It's a net benefit to aiming for all players, and good players are still gonna be good regardless. The power core changes are great because I also have more energy to shoot my guns.

I will say however I have not tested them in duels but quite frankly, why would I? Encountering duels is largely unrealistic and personally, I don't think they're massively fun anyway.

this entirely

good players will always be good and will always trash on you

also tbh didn't realise that knf didnt had zoi, if i was playing knf I probably would have zerged rushed in without caring for the zoi rules bcus it seems sensible you'd want to risk it all to get the MOST IMPORTANT piece of technology out of enemy hands lol

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[R.P.Curator]

How?
Provide examples of how this would be more complicated than the update to the FL / BH Id lines or how this would created "complications".
All thats required:
- server rule regarding forum posts
- ID lines
The community creates the rest. Staff input minimum, output max with community. Where is this counterproductive?
You've got a handful of factions being played by the same people.
This would allow for a smoother transition to in game activity - create a post, deem it "hackable", gets hacked, activity in game. The creator of the post has deemed the post can and will be hacked and will create activity. This is an agreement between 2 players inRp to bring activity.
Give me counterproductive examples.

You don't need ID lines or new server rules to make your in-character communications posts hackable. You can already state that their encryption is bad and that any faction from a list X can breach them and use them ingame.

You don't need, but you should have them, because:
- Having Unlawful factions trading in information will create RP activity and In game Activity
- Unlawful Intelligence factions in all houses will balance the overall game and will create activity - its them vs lawfuls and other unlawful intelligence factions.
- How did the lane hackers find out about Alaska or the Argonaut? Why didn't the Order knew about it?
- Add the line "Can intercept communications" in IDs & Forum will revive certain factions and allow them to create activity both on Forums and Ingame, while staying within server rules, thus eliminating the "metagaming" accusation that's being tossed around.
-

You don't need ID lines or new server rules to make your in-character communications posts hackable. You can already state that their encryption is bad and that any faction from a list X can breach them and use them ingame.

>> This is not common knowledge and / or some people forgot about it. Its easier to remind them via Server Rule / ID line than to deal with reports.
- Its easier and more "natural" if i.e. RM talks to BAF and Bundshunch & Order intercept it cause "Communication: Hackable" to set up a meeting. Order slips the information to Corsairs. RM meets BAF meets Bundshunch meets Corsairs. Activity. There would be no "How did they know and why did the participate?" Easier than: This communication can be intercepted by Corsairs, Outcasts. Here's a list of factions that can intercept this vs "Hey guys, RM is doing this! Wanna join and pew them?"
- Its about creating the tools for the community to generate and create activity, while on the other hand self-governing and reducing the amount of work admins / moderators have to put in on reports
- I see no counter examples or arguments to why not.

[TheSauron]

Also, crazy idea part 2:
- Add unlawful Intelligence factions in all houses
i.e.: Liberty has LH
Rheinland has ? (Bundshunch)?
Bretonia has ?
Gallia has ? (Maquis)?
Kusari has ? (Hogosha? Chrysantemums?)
Omicrons, Taus and Omegas have Order
This along with a small forum change - specifying that RP comms are Private / Hackable / Public would add and increase the RP and would spice things up in game as well.

All of the houses already have at least one unlawful faction that is more than suitable for espionage roleplay. LH in Liberty, as you said, Bundschuh in Rheinland, Gaians in Bretonia, Blood Dragons and Hogosha in Kusari, Corse in Gallia. They might not be actual, fully fledged intelligence agencies, but they're incredibly well connected within their respective houses and have networks more than capable of gathering juicy info, if that's what you want to do. Their IDs are also fairly generous, giving you a lot of flexibility in what you can do in game.

The platform for unlawful intel play is already there. Go and use it.

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One MD Admiral

[Oggdo Bogdo]

People are seriously missing the bigger picture. This argument that "it makes things easier for bad players to aim" isn't a valid one. There are MANY things that you can do to unambiguously buff weaker players without making literally every single thing you do sluggish. They already gravitate toward missiles and class 1 guns while most good players avoid them for their low dps. You could easily buff their damage or hit rates if needed. The current change benefits literally every single gun to a different amount, which not only puts a massive question mark on the current state of balance, but makes even high skill cap guns a lot easier to hit with.

This whole "newbies vs aces" thing is just a false dichotomy to justify a change that regular snub players find awful and is a massive smoke screen that ignores the issues with strafing in the prior patch that were brought up.

There was absolutely no reason to make everything about a snub movement's worse and the idea that it makes things easier is just questionable at best, because it unlocks a whole host of balance problems since most of the other stats in the game from ships to guns were not intended for this level of mass, and having a mathematical understanding of the change benefits you immensely.

Aside from that, most people learn the game from going to conn for DUELS. Group brawls happen far less frequently than going to conn and pinging the discord. The idea that you will make brawls more accessible by making duels more inaccessible is also entirely counterproductive. There are already lower level players who have tried the changes complaining in discord about the changes screwing up their muscle memory.

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[Chuba]

Does this mean I will actually see the aces shooting me and not just have them on my ass ?

not really. most people that say "oh this rewards sitting still" are dog tier pvpers. you will not see good players any more than you have already sitting still means you get hit (even more now).

the absolute biggest change that has been introduced as of late that genuinely is felt is the addition of 800/900ms guns. everything else is not as drastic as people make it out to be.

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[Lythrilux]

This argument that "it makes things easier for bad players to aim" isn't a valid one.

What makes it not valid? I wouldn't exactly say I'm bad, but I'm no 'ace' either. On a good day I'm above average. These changes to me really bridge the gap and make PvP feel a lot less hopeless. I don't want to be forced to play missiles if it's my only option for dealing meaningful DPS.

Aside from that, most people learn the game from going to conn for DUELS. Group brawls happen far less frequently than going to conn and pinging the discord. The idea that you will make brawls more accessible by making duels more inaccessible is also entirely counterproductive. There are already lower level players who have tried the changes complaining in discord about the changes screwing up their muscle memory.

My counterpoint to this is that grinding in conn for hours in duels is just simply not fun. And I think most people can also agree with that. Duels outside of conn is unrealistic. In my time back I've only had a single one verses a gazillion group engagements.

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[L1ght]

This argument that "it makes things easier for bad players to aim" isn't a valid one.

What makes it not valid? I wouldn't exactly say I'm bad, but I'm no 'ace' either. On a good day I'm above average. These changes to me really bridge the gap and make PvP feel a lot less hopeless. I don't want to be forced to play missiles if it's my only option for dealing meaningful DPS.

Aside from that, most people learn the game from going to conn for DUELS. Group brawls happen far less frequently than going to conn and pinging the discord. The idea that you will make brawls more accessible by making duels more inaccessible is also entirely counterproductive. There are already lower level players who have tried the changes complaining in discord about the changes screwing up their muscle memory.

My counterpoint to this is that grinding in conn for hours in duels is just simply not fun. And I think most people can also agree with that. Duels outside of conn is unrealistic. In my time back I've only had a single one verses a gazillion group engagements.

The mass change don't bridge the gap at all, considering changing vectors is much slower and clunky, you will be out turned and circled around more than before while also being HIT more because the increase of mass slows down acceleration, reverse, strafes all of it. This change just makes ships overall feel like garbage and it was not needed at all, what's worse is Freelance / Discovery had 20k strafe force for 20 years and it was NEVER an issue, until patch 5.1 hit where it got reduced to 15k and we were told "because of caps not hitting snubs" which is fair and we stomached it cus it did not impact ships feeling sluggish as mass does. Recently we asked for a revert to 20k because cap guns are 3000ms now and if we are going to be hit, might as well make ships fly/feel way better and what we got is @Haste practically shutting down @HonourWolf s change/proposal to revert back to 20k strafe and he went ahead and added mass just to add salt to injury (lol). We tested the change in good fait, majority of us were very vocal about how it makes flying feel worse which is practically why we all fly snubs in the first place, we like the FLYING part. The event we did yesterday felt miserable everyone in Cipher was complaining about ship feels to the point some even wanted to just not fly the event at all.

Regardless, the mass change is clearly a very bad change and ofc badly received by majority of the snub players ( shock to no one) and should just be reverted. It's not really that complicated.

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[Oggdo Bogdo]

This argument that "it makes things easier for bad players to aim" isn't a valid one.

What makes it not valid? I wouldn't exactly say I'm bad, but I'm no 'ace' either. On a good day I'm above average. These changes to me really bridge the gap and make PvP feel a lot less hopeless. I don't want to be forced to play missiles if it's my only option for dealing meaningful DPS.

Because there are simpler and more precise ways to go about it than to overhaul the entire feel of snubs. It's hard to think of a more extreme solution than to edit the most important stat of every snub in the game by 33%. Everything you do, whether it's EK, turning, strafing, reversing, thrusting will be affected in some way by mass.

Missiles are not the only solution. Class 1 guns are not the only solution. Mass is certainly not a solution when it is this drastic. There's plenty of creative ways to introduce things that are fun instead of slowing the pace of the game down and changing the vanilla-ish feel of snubs. We've had maxims before, corona railguns, scatterguns and other weapons that were phased out of the game. You can't possibly be telling me that mass is the only viable solution to fixing the skill gap.

At what point do we stop and say the skill gap isn't an issue that overrides everything else? Strafing was brought up as an issue because of balance problems with slow VHFs and newbies getting outturned immediately and bludgeoned to death because they can't strafe out of the way. Did this fix that? It penalizes you more heavily for vector switching compared to pre-patch, which means you either eat more shots playing the same way as before or take your chances going in a circle which is what the other player wants you to do.

I'd rather draw the line here before we take the current stance to the extreme and decide to just delete strafing since it provides non-zero skill expression.

My counterpoint to this is that grinding in conn for hours in duels is just simply not fun. And I think most people can also agree with that. Duels outside of conn is unrealistic. In my time back I've only had a single one verses a gazillion group engagements.

What you find fun is irrelevant to the fact that plenty of people still do this and they are adversely affected by it. Just as there are new players adversely affected by decades of skill gap there's also players that are just starting out that keep having to readjust to complete overhauls of balance and snub feel. Whether or not duelists are the minority is not for me to say. On Saturday I was in a VC with 10 people in the PvP discord across all the skill ranges, that were all in conn dueling. There are people that enjoy it and make progress because of it. I also don't really think you can say that it's unrealistic to have duels out of conn since there are snub players that fly alone and you aren't really allowed to gank them anymore. Besides that there are also plenty of situations in group brawls where knowing how to duel helps you.

By the way, I do not fault players for thinking this change is good. It's easy to look at common use cases by grabbing pre-patch meta loadouts and say that this helps new players. But I suspect a meta shift will occur after people have done enough testing. The game already has a huge problem with broken and extremely tryhard loadouts being exploited by certain top level players. Continuously overhauling the game means these kinds of issues will never be fixed to even a reasonable degree.

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[Xenon]

Why is there no discussion before applying large changes such as "Ship Mass Changes" ....?
Please consider the players' opinions before applying large changes affecting everyone—for God's sake!
and special thanks to developers like @Antonio and others who collect players' opinions first, before f'king up their game-play by unilateral forced decisions in the name of balance!!

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[Laz]

Please consider the players' opinions

Players do not have good opinions.

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