Rules Change Discussion 1.1, 2.1, 2.2, 2.4

[Eternal.Journey]

On a slightly more detailed note. Ive been asked to relay my concerns here. Yes. Its time for yet another Wall™ for you guys to read.

So. As far as the rules for ganking goes, yeah. Good change. Clarifies relatively well whats good and whats not. Leaves a few issues up in the air still but its generally sorted. I need a little time to digest that part too, the new combat ships though….

My first major issue with these changes: all mining ships are now considered /1 /2able in any mining field by any ship with ZoI and “can attack combat ships” rule. Lol. Sure, might be fine where your miners are GF, but for the rest of most every mining field where people wanna kinda just chill out and click rocks, sometimes with friends? Yeah. I presume you’ve thought this through? There’s no mention of any protection for people who are mining.

To further extend on this. Most smaller transports now *also* become /1 /2able. Lol. Lmao. Why not just post “we are removing piracy” instead? Lemme propose a scenario.

Outcasts cruiser waltzes up to a BWTransport in Liberty. Transport gets caught at the Cali/NY Jumpgate. /1, /2 happens, because by *your assumption* that transport captain stands a chance at winning that situation.Transport pings for Liberty help. He lasts about three minutes. Support arrives, but theres no sign of the dead transport (aside from the blue message) or the outcast (they went and docked on Fontana). This is assuming “same skill”

Now. Insert most transport captain’s pvp skill level or desire to learn pvp. They really are the bottom of the pile, no desire to shoot people kinda players. You are now pitting them up against situations they’ll neither know how to deal with, nor actually want to deal with. The protection they had was that they could pay pirates. Now the pirates don’t even have to demand anything.

Not only does this reduce more flavourful interactions through rp, but it also encourages more lowrp interactions of blue messaging. You won’t lose the norp runners, because well. They don’t fulfil demands and get blown up anyway. They’re hardened to the experience. Instead you will lose those people who dont want to fight, but can do relatively good roleplay as a transporter, and give decent interactions to pirates, who were before forced to do more than just /1 /2.

You could argue that being “in character” as a pirate is about doing the demand. But my counterpoint (purely hypothetical): I play a pirate that *hates* almost everyone and everything. He enjoys blowing people up, and he loves to hear the screams. He is in essence a pirate terrorist. You have now unlocked him to be a terrorist with the guise of a pirate. I now not only get to be within the confines of the rules for my roleplay, but i have had my own roleplay enhanced to the point where i can fully and completely enjoy it.

I think this says enough, for now.

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[TheSauron]

Discovery Staff Not Introducing Even More Loopholes To Allow Just Ganking The Shit Out Of People You Don't Like Challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

I would appreciate it if you guys could enumerate the gameplay benefits of every transport at 3.6k or below getting 5v1'd by pirates for the crime of carrying cargo that makes money. This ain't it, and I'm saying this as a staunch advocate of nuking transport PvP protections. Let them be engaged, sure, they're capable of self defense. But why pair it with yet another ganking exemption? Why does John Serenity not deserve to have fun in a pirate encounter just cause he's doing a cargo run?

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One MD Admiral

[St.Denis]

Now. Insert most transport captain’s pvp skill level or desire to learn pvp. They really are the bottom of the pile, no desire to shoot people kinda players. You are now pitting them up against situations they’ll neither know how to deal with, nor actually want to deal with. The protection they had was that they could pay pirates. Now the pirates don’t even have to demand anything.

This^^^^

The Devs have made the decision to make certain 'trade' ships capable of, supposedly, fending off ships that are designated 'fighting' ships. I have never seen the need for trade ships to have the big guns.

Now you have decided that any ship of 3600 hold and below can now be treated as 'combat' ships. Really???

I advocated, a while ago, that trade ships could lose their PvP protection upon docking, ie they would be counted as PvP dead, like any other ship.

Most traders aren't interested in PvP and those that are, are usually making credits to get their 'PvP' ships. Why did you have to 'blur' the lines and make trade ships PvP capable? Was it because not enough ships were getting 'blued' for your amusement?

Now my main worry, as it always has been, is the newer Players. Spookily enough, they start off with ships with less than 3600 hold and generally have little to no PvP skills. You have now signalled an 'open season' on them. Are they going to hang around when they are regularly 'blued' because they are flying a ship that is deemed a combat ship?

And yet, you have mentioned that you don't want this Server to become a purely PvP Server. Maybe remove those rose tinted glasses and 'see' that this is where it is actually heading.

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'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are'
Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person

[NBK]

‘Asuka.Is.Best.Girl,’ which is a reference to a popular media franchise (and is also wrong)

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LIBERTY THROUGH THE POWER

INFORMATION, RECRUITMENT, INTERNAL COMMUNICATION,
FEEDBACK.

[JadeTornado]

Could you please define "PVP Sportsmanship" and "fairplay" for me? It sounds very vague and feels like a highly flexible 1.0 rule.

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In a live role playing environment, you are not owed or mandated to be given a duel. Fights develop differently every time and people have varying degree of time to log on their hands or have their own plans.

Cap PVP discord server

[Haste]

Could you please define "PVP Sportsmanship" and "fairplay" for me? It sounds very vague and feels like a highly flexible 1.0 rule.

It's actually really easy.

Whenever you are in a fight against other players, ask yourself whether they have a chance of winning. Ask yourself whether the players on the enemy "team" are currently having fun. If they're not, wonder what you can do about it. Hold some ships back if numbers are the problem. Maybe one individual, extremely skilled player is so much better than everyone else involved in the fight that they're just impossible to contest, and maybe should be swapped out for someone worse. I'll be the first to admit that this kind of sucks to do, as very few of us log into Discovery Freelancer just to spectate a fight. However, even fewer of us enjoy being minced with zero counterplay.

If you're really logging in for PvP specifically then the best way to avoid having to sit out all the time is to try and predict which side in a fight is going to struggle the most, and log in for them. If you instead log in for the stronger side, and are a player with a lot of "agency' (a cap player with sick mechanics and even better positioning, or a snub player with super cracked aim), then I think you're kind of scamming yourself most of the time as the most sportsmanlike way to play would probably be.. not to play.

I also personally believe that with these sorts of rules we need to be careful not to hit players with sanctions because they slightly fucked up that one time and won a little bit too hard. We should look at egregious cases, where absolutely zero restraint was shown in an extremely one-sided fight, or consistent patterns over time where a player or group of players just plays to win (by a landslide) (nearly) all of the time.

[Luke.]

Unsure why there's upset about there being a modicum of risk to the easiest way to make big money relatively fast. Sirius is a violent place, pirating alone sucks, so having at least somebody with you is encouraged anyway, and by the logic of some here that means we're now in unfair territory already. That's just not how it works, or should work. You don't lose much cash, and you've not even lost that if it were mined resources. Only time in the latter case. Ironically, it may even be less costly than being pirated for cash! There aren't almost any pirates whatsoever right now like it's a lost art, piracy is a valid form of RP (always has been) and people run on the assumption that people are just going to /1 /2 which may not be the case anyway. A lot of PvPers prefer a duel of sorts, or a fight against their own chosen class (usually snubs). I've seen one example of a GB running around killing people lately but that wasn't even transports.

At least let changes be tested and if there's a problem, amend where appropriate. Status quo isn't always good. People aren't happy with that either, so it starts to look like they're not happy with anything and just argue for the sake of it. This comes from someone who absolutely enjoys ambiguity too, and prefers not to open fire outside of raids without at least some conversation. God forbid having any form of red on the radar carries any form of "uh oh".

I think these rule changes are fine. Clarifications are needed and are now being displayed so, kudos to the staff for that.

I do think if there's going to be any further change, to be a tightening up of the rule that dictates the minimum interaction needed though. If somebody responds to a /1 in a non-hostile fashion or seems open to an actual conversation, then I think this should be a signal that you may not immediately open fire following the /2. Personally. Make people entertain the idea of a compromise or de-escalation and encourage monetary loss (which again, would be the potentially the same cost or even more than being blown up by that point. Funny how that works). If the defendant is unwilling, then free game. Food for thought.

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[Kayla Trevarthian]

This is from someone new to the game. I started playing to have fun with my husband. I was told it was a roleplay server. Awesome, lets play. This new rule is going to have people like me quitting the game because we wouldn't be having fun. If you want this sever to go the way I seem to think you do, this wont help. It will turn into a purely PVP server.

Here is my two cents worth. 1) I LOVE to roleplay and this isnt. 2) I cant fly well in a 3D environment. 3) I cant PVP at ALL well. Real problems targeting. 4) This would give me a very limited selection of ships I could fly that would fit the roleplay reason I am playing - a roving restaurant.

Come on, guys, don't make this hard for newcomers or roleplayers who only want some fun interaction. I dont mind pirates, don't get me wrong. In fact the interactions can be fun, just don't come at me and blow me up without giving me a chance to hand you something, money or even a meal. RP pirate? Sure. Kamikaze just aim and shoot, no thanks.

[Chxlls]

This is from someone new to the game. I started playing to have fun with my husband. I was told it was a roleplay server. Awesome, lets play. This new rule is going to have people like me quitting the game because we wouldn't be having fun. If you want this sever to go the way I seem to think you do, this wont help. It will turn into a purely PVP server.

Here is my two cents worth. 1) I LOVE to roleplay and this isnt. 2) I cant fly well in a 3D environment. 3) I cant PVP at ALL well. Real problems targeting. 4) This would give me a very limited selection of ships I could fly that would fit the roleplay reason I am playing - a roving restaurant.

Come on, guys, don't make this hard for newcomers or roleplayers who only want some fun interaction. I dont mind pirates, don't get me wrong. In fact the interactions can be fun, just don't come at me and blow me up without giving me a chance to hand you something, money or even a meal. RP pirate? Sure. Kamikaze just aim and shoot, no thanks.

OBLIGATORY - Speaking from my opinion as a player - not as a member of the staff or dev team.

It’s funny you bring this up, but the reason a lot of these rules are being modified is to benefit players like yourself, and others, who would prefer longer roleplay interactions than just two lines and shooting.

The rule changes mentioned in this thread will actually encourage people to engage in roleplay, rather than just shooting the first red ship they see.

Typically, well-known characters who are known to be non-confrontational are left alone by the majority of the pvp playerbase. They may be victims of piracy, but usually that’s as far as it goes (usually).

As for your character and desired roleplay - I’d suggest being mindful of which ID you are using for your desired outcome. As a roving restaurant, a Zoner ID would keep you safe from nearly all factions in discovery from immediately engaging your ship.

If a nomad player (one of the only IDs which could theoretically do this) were to do that to you, I’d imagine that player would be reportable based on the aforementioned changes.

TLDR - making it very apparent that you have no intentions of pvp (a roving restaurant that is adequately named in-game) will deter ~90%+ of the playerbase from shooting you. There are always bad apples, but most of us pvp-brains prefer that pvp is agreed upon by both sides.

If you ever have an issue with the concerns you’ve voiced here - feel free to DM me directly either here or in discord (@chills1) and would be happy to help where I can.

[Sand-Viper]

The proposed 2.4 rule change really scares me.

As Eternal.Journey mentioned, a lot of players who mainly fly transports aren't all that good at PvP. Case in point: My wife @Kayla Trevarthian , who is an author/writer at heart, is only playing Freelancer because the RP is fun and interesting. I have her in a Democritus Liner, for several reasons:

• It's a transport, which means most IDs cannot simply kill her without a piracy demand.
  
• For those IDs that can pirate her, she can just.. Comply with the demand to avoid being shot? (wow, what a concept)
  
• Its the "I guess its good enough" aesthetic ship option she picked, since our previous 2020-era restaurant RP ship, the Geisha, was taken from us (yes i'm still salty about that).
  
• Her skills in not just PvP, but flying her ship in general equate to "Target my husband, press F4, and let him fly for me - 3D controls confusing, I just wanna chat!"
  

Only last Sunday did my wife finally get to try out any real combat training, and that was only because a friend offered to tutor her and assess both her and mine's combat skills. After some basic maneuver testing and keybind checks, we went out and did the Penny encounter, then the Manhattan encounter.

Vs. the tuned-for-newer-players encounter, she did okay, once she got her bearings while trying to figure out "How do I target the enemy, turn my ship, thrust, strafe, aim, AND SHOOT, all at the same time, in an environment that is VERY disorienting to me??"

Against the Manhattan encounter, I noticed her struggle and kinda freeze up while being swamped with information overwhelm, and started trying to shoot at NPCs far outside of gun range. I feel that the only reason that she didn't get blown up, is the fact that she hit so few NPCs that she was neutral and thus wasn't shot at after each wave ended.

Thanks to a scare with a WENDIGO post-training (loved that 45 min Manhattan atmosphere RP btw!), I have since had her replace her Broadsword with a Pelican, because Wendigos (among some of the other Wild ID factions), cannot openly engage someone UNLESS, they are flying a combat ship.


Here's another pain-point regarding the proposed 2.4:
I work 40 hours a week, these days. I cook dinner every night, and try to help with housework where I can. This leaves me with limited time to play each weekday night. These days, I much prefer to play an RP-focused, roving restaurant alongside my wife.

• I don't want to PvP when I'm doing restaurant RP, hence - I have us in transports.
  
• The Freelancer ID fits best for our entrepreneurial, be-our-own-boss style of RP. We literally, wouldn't be able to use the Freelancer ID anymore, because it doesn't allow ships over 3600 cargo (Imagine wanting to be an RP-focused Freelancer in a game called FREELANCER, but being told "no" because suddenly your ID doesn't allow you to fly PvP-protected ships, anymore.)
  
• Most IDs can't blow us up outright. Pirates =/= terrorists.
  
• The few IDs that CAN treat our trade ships as combat targets, are in dangerous areas of the game, which is the risk that we have accepted by being there.
  

I have thoughts regarding freighters, but I'll save that for another post, as I've talked a lot already.

PLEASE don't turn all of Sirius into a Blue Simulator vs. an RP-focused class of ship. I love this server SO darn much because of just how EASY and COMFORTABLY I can RP in it - No other game to me comes CLOSE to Discovery for RP environments.

Right now, I LOOOOVE our double-transport, Roving Restaurant RP a'la the Gaelic Wyvern Inn.
But this?
Please no...
Please don't make us go from, can-go-anywhere-at-any-time, fun-roving-RP, to..
"Welp, I-guess-I-just-move-my-ship-during-off-hours-and-park-at-a-base-100%-of-the-time and sit around hoping that RP'ers come, and not someone I have to swiftly F3 against and have my fun ruined for the evening.."

Plz no ;-;

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