The "job" of the military

[Jihadjoe]

The police are more focused on dealing with internal criminals. Go complain at them.

Edit: Let me explain that comment in a little more detail.

Sure, the military does deal with internal security issues. The problem is every last military in sirius is at war with another house. This means that during those factions are online, they will want to be doing that element of the job. Like Alec said, people have limited time, and we play this game for the kicks, not to chase around after miners who can't be bothered to hire their own security.

Fighting the various wars is much more fulfilling in terms of military RP, and the fun times to be had. Police RP is much much more focused on dealing with issues such as this. Protecting trade from internal criminal elements and so on. Security at mining sites should be provided more by the police and the company's own security wing alongside mercs and bounty hunters.

The [LN] often gets stuck in the following situation.

- We get complained at for not actively persecuting the war with rheinland.
- We head off into rheinland and I get PM'd by 29386492649827648726424 traders who're pissed off about the nineteen pirates in california.

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[Jeremy Hunter]

Tell your members to stop logging on thier pirates so often.

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May you ever walk in the Light, Shizune.

[VoluptaBox]

- We get complained at for not actively persecuting the war with rheinland.
- We head off into rheinland and I get PM'd by 29386492649827648726424 traders who're pissed off about the nineteen pirates in california.

That too...think I showed my hate for power traders/miners many times, but just in case......

[Blodo]

Tell your members to stop logging on thier pirates so often.

As surprising and unbelievable as this may sound, house pirate factions are not military factions on their unlawful characters. They are actually their own people, and vice versa. I know, preposterous, right?

[Sturmwind]

Sure not 24/7 but if Im rmember right, when the 1st WRF was on the top, Omegas was fairly safe for miners, and Im sure a lot of Kruger miner agree with this sentence (The active WRF members number was only 4).

As I stated before, we cannot solve retaining an activity rate like that, especially since we are not focused on the Omegas. However, just because we're not focused on the Omegas, that doesn't mean that we don't care about it at all. Another thing is that it is member-based, most of our members don't like to view this game as a task and have other characters to tend to, and so on.

I endorse the existence of the WRF, since the first version gave a good temporary solution to security there, though I won't say that I didn't spend a considerable amount of my time with cleaning up some issues the WRF caused, so though it worked in providing security, it shifted the problems instead of making them cease.

We always was close and came if someone needed help or reported a pirate in Omegas. Sadly RM dont do the same. Just yesterday I runned into 3 Outcast arms alone on my DHC- eagle and called an [RM], but his short answer was "Dont care".

Can I get some evidence on that? I'll deal with it if that really happened, I'd also welcome some elaboration on the circumstances. Personally, I recall popping open a Trident in the Omegas just yesterday.

What need to do? Simply. You personally have a half dozen of [RM] tagged, and who know how many indy RM char. You and others park 1-1 on Elbich/Briesen and change there if civilians need some protection against corsairs or RHA/RF. All time. In mass. And of course kill or kick out the enemy.

And that is called metagaming, an action which is shunned by the community. See the second paragraph of this response. We also have to look out for giving the enemy enjoyment, not simply victory for our own men.

And do not make patrol when noone around, but come when really needed.

I don't see how that is possible unless you schedule your operations. Both mining and pirating is done spontaneously.

And dont think I am behind the DHC/RHA cease fire pact, I always chose the way of fight, and this sound to me like a surrender, but I totally understand my members. Daumann and Kruger dont contain so much member like RHA contain aces. 2-3 from us what have moderate skills in fight, others sadly... . DHC- tried a lot. Hired BHG- hired mercs, created WRF, begged for rheinland technology coz eagle is sux in O11 radiation. Seems like noone wanted messing with RHA and we dont wanted a 2nd Dublin (actually Dublin is better coz at least HAF is there and die for his civilians).

The RM doesn't have that many 'aces' either, and we tried a lot to assist the DHC too, without involving metagaming or going off the lore. I don't see why you keep bringing up this Wraith thing either, we gave you those ships already. But as I previously said, we can't know when you need help without constant surveillance, which is as I stated before impossible, or scheduling.

It's not that we don't want to 'mess' with the RHA. It's more like that we consider their point of view important as well since they are players, not our enemies, just like the DHC is. That aspect does not need to reflect our view in role play or canon though and since we all are what I think of as responsible leaders, we can make a difference between role play and OOC.

I already know the answer: the magic word RP and common sense, but losing and losing and losing all day, more times is boring after a while. RM leaders somehow never understood this. We asked, noone can say we dont tried, because RM not helped solving our problems, we solved on our own way. And before someone say it is OORP, it isnt. A firm - especially if no other way - juse up his money weapon. This is the capitalist way and he dont care how government dont prefer it.

You got that right, and I know losing can be demotivating. If you feel demotivated OORP, ask the RHA to cease their constant attacks since they are getting annoying and don't let your members develop. Breaking your RP because of OORP aspects is not the solution.

If they refuse to do so, invest all that money into hiring mercenaries/bounty hunters and as I said, schedule your mining operations. Decide that you'd go mining every day at say, 10 o'clock, then all the mercenaries and the RM would know when you're in space, when you can expect an attack and when they have to go and protect you.

Without that, the only way we can assist you would be constant surveillance. Which is again, impossible.

Now I told my oppinion about your question, what is not a new thing. I proved in the past how it can work, with smaller number player. And I now turn back a little bit your question. What did RM for his civilians? I am in Rheinland since 2 years and dont saw too much. Seems like you are surprised just dunno why.

What do you need? A dossier on our patrols lead to the Omegas? It's not our fault that neither DHC nor any other mining company is around when we are. Do you need reports when we chase pirates away? Do you need evidence of us standing up for the DHC on the forums?

I will not break my faction's role play because of OORP aspects.

And if that seriously is so much of a problem, I ask back: What did the DHC do for the RM, ever? Why are we expected to be your babysitters when you invest your profit into supporting terrorism instead of your military forces?

The police are more focused on dealing with internal criminals. Go complain at them.

Edit: Let me explain that comment in a little more detail.

Sure, the military does deal with internal security issues. The problem is every last military in sirius is at war with another house. This means that during those factions are online, they will want to be doing that element of the job. Like Alec said, people have limited time, and we play this game for the kicks, not to chase around after miners who can't be bothered to hire their own security.

Fighting the various wars is much more fulfilling in terms of military RP, and the fun times to be had. Police RP is much much more focused on dealing with issues such as this. Protecting trade from internal criminal elements and so on. Security at mining sites should be provided more by the police and the company's own security wing alongside mercs and bounty hunters.

The [LN] often gets stuck in the following situation.

- We get complained at for not actively persecuting the war with rheinland.
- We head off into rheinland and I get PM'd by 29386492649827648726424 traders who're pissed off about the nineteen pirates in california.

/Signed, though allow me to add something:

People expect the Navy to deal with internal security issues because the Navy is willing to do so when they are untasked. If we were to change that mindset, the Navy would need to entirely disregard internal security problems and should focus on combating other House militaries/pirates with extreme threat level.

We know that won't fly, definitely not in lower activity Houses, such as Rheinland, where a pirate showing up every now and then is all the action we get.

Another thing is, as said before, the fact that pirates get to throw VHFs against the Police, flying LFs/SHFs.

Tell your members to stop logging on thier pirates so often.

What Blodo said in response to that is correct, for example there's only like 2-3 shared members between the RHA and the RM currently.

I never quite understood why some people detected that it is military members expressing personal hate for miners by "logging their unlawful" when in fact, for example in the RM, we use our unlawfuls most commonly to combat other RM members.

[Rodent]

Think of Sirius as the high seas, back in the 1700s. When great pirates roamed the seas, sneaking in and out, and navies could do nothing but maintain patrols and *hope* to catch them at their task.

Space is massive. There are a few hub areas where the navy operates, and defends the interest, but if you into the mining fields...check where the mining fields are. Omega-7, Dublin, Tau 23. None of those are primary house systems. If you are going into the wild wild west (so to speak), or into an area that is not much explored yet, you will face threats. The Navies cannot cover all the areas. Solution? If you value your life, hire your own security. Would give mercs/freelancers something to do.

It was very hard to maintain a semblance of peace back in the pirate era, and it's difficult to maintain peace in Freelancer, for any navy. Amen.

[AeternusDoleo]

Okay, I was shown something that some people may consider ludicrously going off the lore, it is yet another under the desk ceasefire treaty between two factions that should be mortal enemies. Now, that is irrelevant and I ask everyone to refrain from discussing the treaty itself, what I consider more of an issue is the reasoning which was used to make the deal materialize.

The assumed lack of support from the military.

I keep noticing how players (usually traders and miners) constantly demand to be protected by the military forces of every House and go as far as labeling the military force of that certain house incompetent for not being able to constantly, 24/7 be available to assist them.

Those people need a reality check. Military forces protect the nation, not every idiot plowing the lanes alone. That's why dangerous trading (across the independant or borderworlds for instance) should be done in escorted convoys. 's why there's bounty hunters, mercenaries, escort wings. The military isn't an escort wing you don't need to pay. They are, at best, reactive. Responding to a reported pirate ambush site to boot said pirates from the lane.

Indies are most likely to whine at the militaries since they aren't part of any group they can turn to for escort duty. It's one of the major drawbacks of being an independant - you have to arrange your own support.

[Edit] Oh, and officially, law enforcement is the task of the LPI in Liberty. LN should be duking it out with Rheinland, and respond to military grade threats. Problem is the LPI isn't exactly equipped to handle most pirate swarms these days. Might help to give those guys free access to the Lib gunboat and snubs (not the capital ships). Seeing as pirates may use up to bombers and gunboats freely, makes sense to apply the same rules for law enforcement.

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Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.

Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.

[Sturmwind]

Think of Sirius as the high seas, back in the 1700s. When great pirates roamed the seas, sneaking in and out, and navies could do nothing but maintain patrols and *hope* to catch them at their task.

Space is massive. There are a few hub areas where the navy operates, and defends the interest, but if you into the mining fields...check where the mining fields are. Omega-7, Dublin, Tau 23. None of those are primary house systems. If you are going into the wild wild west (so to speak), or into an area that is not much explored yet, you will face threats. The Navies cannot cover all the areas. Solution? If you value your life, hire your own security. Would give mercs/freelancers something to do.

It was very hard to maintain a semblance of peace back in the pirate era, and it's difficult to maintain peace in Freelancer, for any navy. Amen.

Those people need a reality check. Military forces protect the nation, not every idiot plowing the lanes alone. That's why dangerous trading (across the independant or borderworlds for instance) should be done in escorted convoys. 's why there's bounty hunters, mercenaries, escort wings. The military isn't an escort wing you don't need to pay. They are, at best, reactive. Responding to a reported pirate ambush site to boot said pirates from the lane.

Indies are most likely to whine at the militaries since they aren't part of any group they can turn to for escort duty. It's one of the major drawbacks of being an independant - you have to arrange your own support.

Agreed with both of that, and while we all know what should be done, it's more of another mindset issue that evolved maliciously with the development of Disco.

People look at the militaries as free escort/protection and those militaries definitely don't act against that assumption if they have nothing better to do indeed.

Of course people would prefer to bash the military for not doing their "job" right rather than spend material cash on a constant escort. The military is an illusion of constant protection and that illusion can be rather misleading, especially if the militaries themselves often "step in" to do the job of the police.

Again understandable, since the police is in its current shape and form, is incompetent to perform as well as expected, and it's a game mechanic issue, not the fault of police players/leaders.

Then again, there's this:

In-RP, corporations make the profit for the House/military, but in reality they don't. There is no tax or anything similar, so the cash of the military is made by the military. Spending the military's real cash to protect their non-real enterprise partners is sorta iffy, especially if we pay ludicrous amounts to mercenaries as we did before, say in the case of Reavers, who were damn efficient but also drained a few hundred millions of Rheinwehr money.

If the corporation pays tax (instead of paying their enemies to leave them alone), we can invest that into protecting them, but now we can barely finance our own needs to stay alive, as a faction.

[Markam]

Alluding to the Stationary Battleship placement; of course you can't move stationary Battleships, but you can RP a Battleship in the style of a stationary Battleship!

Battleships are more of a deterrent than a pirate hunter. If Battleship pilots behaved more responsibly they could fulfil the job of flashpoint holder. As far as my experience goes, if a trader/miner can get close to a Battleship it is safe from pirate attack, at the very least as an escort to a friendly base or real stationary battleship.

[Agmen of Eladesor]

I have both an LN indy and an LPI indy character. From an RP perspective, my LPI guy is out there trying to patrol the lanes in whichever house he's been 'assigned' to work that day - and I do move around. Sometimes I meet people, sometimes I don't. I do try to RP with the bad guys to just 'move along' - you don't want me to not get my donuts later, right? Sometimes they listen - most often they just attack because I'm a police officer.

Navy - I'm busy doing search patrols for Rheinlanders. I've stopped some of you looking for Rheinland contraband, and for the ubiquitous Rhienland transport ship. You call that there's a pirate in California while I'm in New York - I'm on a military patrol, doing my job. If my orders allowed me to go there, I would. But those are things for the civilian government and police to handle - I need to watch for Rheinland battleships and raids. How much trouble do you think I would get in if I'm supposed to be sitting in Texas and an enemy combat patrol comes into our space - and I instead am up in Colorado chasing after a Xeno that harrassed a civilian.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.