' Wrote:As a Zoner Indie, since I didn't join any zoner faction.
I find that the 3 current zoner factions follow the zoner will. We have 3 aspect in the 3 faction : Religion, commerce, technologie. ANd all maintain the basic Zoner policies.
Zoner are people who decided to live outside colonial control. And by that way they are many. Because each time a governement do something they will be people against and who will leave the system. And some of them become Zoner.
Also each zoner faction different, they follow there own way. Like a zoner. They have different home and different goal, Like all freeport in vanilla.
So to my mind The current Zoner Faction are fine. In vanilla it's written that Zoner have very good scientist. So they can build cap. The reason : need to explore deeper because of the colonist expansion. And have an answer to the PIRATE cap, because yes, in that way 'sair , outcast didn't have cap too in vanilla.
It's just plain stupid for me to hear when someone says: ye they ruined npc faction role play.
Why? Cause every person has different view/opinion on how factions should act like, if you think someone is doing it wrong, make your own faction and do your kind of RP, the way you feel it should be. Set example or whatever...
Expecting someone to change the way they play this game as you feel it's wrong is nonsense, cause let's face it, folks ain't here really for other people's entertainment, although one should care about that at least a bit.
' Wrote:Ok thanks, I'm not saying Zoners are freelancers, I'm saying the official factions are treating them as though they are, and that its bad.
The Nomads arnt wiping out humanity; as Juni says:
"Because we're too strong"
They've probly given up by now, and have phonecalled the dom kavosh for help, thats who gallia really is.
Well, it was originally about the artifact that the thief was running around with, the Nomads are big on hunting down active artifacts and taking them back or breaking them. And humanity really doesn't pose a threat to the Nomads so the Nomads sit in the Omicrons, rather content.
' Wrote:along with yesterdays event of the choice of a new leading member of the disco community ( admin choice ) - came something that kind of disturbed me
it was not directly related to it - but influenced by this event... when a key member of the community in a skype channel mentioned that from his/her point of view "the official zoner factions ruined the faction"
this is probably the utmost serious crizisism one can do about the works of a faction - uttered by a key member of he community - it is something that MUST be addressed.
the following lines are taken out of the entire discussion ( too long to display ) - but they display how i perceived them:
[12:30:17 AM] : I think the zoner factions have screwed up the zoners.
[12:30:44 AM] : I annoyed that they took a fun faction to play and added a lot of politics.
[12:31:59 AM] : Actually there were many indies who just wanted to play the old fashioned non factionalised zoners.
i have deleted the name, cause it is of no concern here.
coming from a key member - that is such a serious comment that it needs to be clarified.
have the zoner factions screwed up? - maybe all 3 or some or only one zoner faction(s) have an idea of the roleplay that is so far off that the faction really got twisted... it is hard to spot such things as they come creepingly slowly into play and you wont notice it until its too late.
what i d like people to comment on is:
1) have zoner factions screwed up?
2) what EXACTLY have they done wrongly?
3) if so ... what should be done to better things?
( 4) how would a perfect inRP reaction would have looked like in last years events ( which is why we still argue about it ) ) <--- only if you do know the background keep in mind that this is a serious discussion, ANY attempt of trolling or making fun of it shall be purged
some facts about Zoner RP:
1. vanilla FL is indicating that the Zoners are strongly cooperating although they always try to avoid interference with Non-Zoners
2. common Disco RP was that the Corsairs are highly depending on Zoner food supplies, which might be different to some vanilla quotes, but which was certainly being reflected by the in-game activities like the fact that almost nobody but Zoners delivered food to crete over a longer period
3. feedback from the dev team included the inablility of Corsairs to take Theta
a sequence of rp decision making should be obvious for the sake of a playable environment:
1. everything covered by the dev team has to be accepted as campain setting. devs spreading information about rp are responsible for the impact it has on the individual rp. also as a side note, admins who are not devs have to accept these rp settings as well.
2. aspects not covered by item 1, including contradicting dev statements, have to be solved by the vanilla compaign settings
3. innovative expansions have to be settled by all involved parties. unilateral decisions who are being enforced by sheer player numbers, strategical occupation of advantegous rp posisions (as mulit-faction leading, peseudo-alliance orchestration) has to be considered powergaming
some facts about the RP developments between Zoners and Corsairs, including ooc behaviour, which is an important example why this community is failing at accepting Zoner RP; it might seem to be off-topic but in fact this important example bears all structural similarities to all other issues with Zoner RP:
the Corsair dependence of food was neglected, which was reflected by intentional neglection of initiated forum RP (ZTC and OSI addressing the Corsair Elders). on that escalation level, at least two official Zoner factions trying to induce forum RP with at least three official Corsair groups, can easily be regarded as denial of RP, and if you want to call it "RP disruption".
instead of an according RP response:
- a generic group, called the [A]narchists, was supported and officially justified by leading players of Corsair factions as logical and reasonable RP, thus neglecting the initial cause of the logical reaction of Zoners.
- Corsair factions openly siding with an arch-enemy, the Guild Core, against Zoners justified by the unilateral decision of forging a Non Aggression Pact. this NAP started out as legitime RP decision but went foul when it was applied as a justification for Corsair and Core players to attack Zoners, thus crossing the border from a non-aggression aggrement to a real and active alliance. neither dev statements were approving this, nor were there any technical means (like ID and IFF adjustments) imposed to the game mechanics
- the major RP weakness of Corsairs being food dependent was eliminated by RP abuse using stratically advantegeous role impersonations, such as leading Corsair players being part of the IND and the AFA, including some frenzied forum work to pervert facts and forge new ones
- cap raids in Theta and bombarding of FP9 despite the lack of any player resistence to cover the forged facts
the final attempt to acquit the Corsair players from the stains of using ooc means only and forge their RP to explore arbitrary and uncontested possibilities was a way to spread the lie that the Zoner factions are ruining the Zoner NPC faction. it is not the primary and abstract focus in this topic but the inherent correlation of this blame was reflected in endless forum discussions between Zoner and Corsair players who were merely demanding a different role play (sure, fitting their very own interests and again trying to acquit their roles from their own inabilities) that was not conforming to the more elaborated RP ideas and approaches by the Zoner factions. Finally it was put as the non-conformance of Zoner Factions to something that was never defined before, Zoner Role Play, which was just another perversion of facts as the Zoner players had to face in every serious escalation.
in fact the ruin of Zoner Role Play is nothing but a myth:
- no NPC faction has official groups that are permanently trying to enoucrage the role play of independent players so much as the TAZ, OSI or Croners do
- any political role play is mostly caused by dragging the Zoners into diplomatic issues based on the fact that almost nobody can stand the fact the Zoner characters are rather indifferent, as one aspect of neutrality, and often careless regarding the interests of one single group, as another aspect of their neutrality. Zoner characters have to act politcally on every level of their existence in order to deflect the permanent blames being thrown at them
- no independent Zoner is being molested by official faction
- Zoner factions are maintaining a constant quality of RP, and inRP decisions, which is serving as an example, but not an exclusive one
conclusion:
the reasons to neglect, deny, confront or oppose Zoner RP is mostly based on OOC reasons like
"Why am I not able to play like I did 100 years ago?"
"Zoners have to be passive victims"
"Zoners should ... Zoners should not ..."
But any details in this thread or any other of the numerous threads before will not solve anything of the Zoner RP issues. They are originating from the inablility of Non-Zoner players to adopt to a role play that is not dominated by pvp skills, thus subject to many definitory problems. In addition the Zoner player base is permanently discussing RP variations, basic alterations, and final definition, certainly not by neglecting Zoner Independents, which is just another hint on the immanent problem of this variable and undefined NPC faction.
I am still missing the logically necessary question:
"Should the Zoner NPC Faction have any official factions at all?"
A simple "no" would solve all of the stupid and ignorant crap we've seen for about 12 months now, while a simple "yes" should actually silence all those who are bored enough to question the RP work of the Zoner faction.
Now, I suggest to the Devs to elaborate and publish a playable and complete RP definition because it is annoying to repeat oneself over and over gain. Reinventing the wheel is an endeavor for notoriously unsatisfied people, and actually only a waste of time.
If nobody can provide an uncontested definition of Zoner Role Play I suggest that the Admins are disbanding the official Zoner factions and interdicting any attempt to create Zoner groups of any kind. A tag forbiddance would be a neat implementation.
If both cannot be achieved for any reasons I would actually like to suggest to mind your own business and stop double standards, or to cooperate with the Zoner Factions because the players of these are competent and experienced enough to know where the Zoner RP starts, and where it ends.
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OK. I'm going to comment on this.
*puts on his body armor, expecting claims of Zoner bias*
I also speak as a player, NOT an Admin or a faction leader.
Quote:Have zoner factions screwed up?
I say no. We have 3 Zoner factions, each distinctly different than the other. After all, it is what people wanted. People branded the Council of Zoners a failure, saying that the Zoners got too powerful and oppressive. But as you look around Sirius and Gallia, you see house governments fighting over every inch of unclaimed territory to increase the size of their houses. Caught up in it are the Zoners who left the houses long before this expansionism.
Look at Freeport 1. Omega 3, while officially having no claims to it, is contested by Bretonia and even has Rheinland making moves on it. Corsairs and Hessians also have an influence. Caught in the middle? The Zoners of Freeport 1, forced to accept the will of Bretonia because of a treaty written by a former administrator who is no longer playing or in one case, a treaty signed by a Gallic traitor. If those Zoners oppose, they are threatened to "honor" them. I'm pretty certain that if the shoe was on the other foot, Bretonia wouldn't recognize a treaty written by a traitor either. I wouldn't.
Freeport 6 to a lesser extent has also been pressured but not nearly as bad.
Freeport 2 is under constant harassment by Rheinland and Liberty who claim "you're harboring the enemy." Things were fine until both houses made a move on Bering and went to war. So I ask, who's the problem? It's not the Zoners!
People say that Zoners shouldn't have cap ships. I've heard people ask, "Did you ever consider dropping the cap ships? People might leave you alone." At the same time, I keep hearing, "Zoners in RP are supposed to submit to all." I prefer the old addage, "If you want peace, prepare for war." Now, TAZ isn't a military power nor does it want to be. We won't look for a fight either but I will tell you this, it won't back down either against expansionist.
I will agree that indie Zoners shouldn't have caps. We've seen all too often what some of these people do with them. Even rogue groups such as PYM.
As for the factions themselves, each is unique. OSI trades mostly in the edge worlds where corporates don't go, venturing in occasionally to the houses for good we can't get. The Omicroners are the guardians of Zoner tech and secrets while TAZ recluses in it's worship of Discordianism. TAZ has trade convoys but they exchange small trade contracts to fund it's temple. Having chaired the former Council of Zoners, I too prefer the three Zoner group individualities. I really think people should quit complaining about it.
The fix for all of this isn't in the Zoners themselves but the houses. Each house is at war with someone. They need to increase this activity instead of going after non-military targets. Criminal factions should be increasing their activity against each other as well. If you want to isolate the Zoners, avoidance would be a good policy.
I still long feel certain irregularities need to fixed. The growth of Zoners, when Disco buffed them up, does not make any sense for the time span of their existance and especially where they were 20yrs ago to where they are now. There is a serious matter with dates that need to be addressed concerning the lore, that or...what the majority will call; a nerf. I'd suggest a redo of the historic dates for the Zoners since this current setup has been established long enough to be entrenched. The point is, it absolutely immpossible for Zoners to have had that much sex and births in less then one generation's worth of time while at that same time interval, simultaneously have these kids operate a sudden massive expansion in resources, tech application, complex shipbuilding up to colony ships...etc....all done by a massive population that was just born and couldn't have reached adolescence yet. Even when doing the math for the birth rate of humans the spike in 20 yrs would not scratch at the numbers presented now. It took how long for humans to reach 6.3 billion on Earth?
Its hard to raise any enthusiasm for "Increasing house war activity" when you know no matter how many enemy fighters you blow up, the war is going to drag on and on, the same boring thing for years until 4.86 comes out, and even then your actions wont have any effect on how it turns out.
Whereas attacking zoners in the middle at least is fresher, and provokes an amusing response. As well as destroying a trade ship full of cargo has more effect than an enemy fighter, thanks to no shiploss on death.
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You sir, being an biased member of zoner faction you'r talking about, just fear to face the tence and consequences of ingame\forum rp decitions made. This is not the secret that zoners where threating corsairs and then calling half'o'sirius to save their arses on nine. All words about that were told before, so I'm not going to talk of it again. Then about the Core involvement - you called an Order ships to pew pew sairs, so core went in to pew pew on order caps because of good fact them being far from isis.
If you think that all things must be arranged oorply in skype before actually doing something then you'r rather silly and cowardly person who can't stand the fact that some thing are always not controlled, planned, farseed, or expected. That makes things interesting when you do a move and wonder what'll happen next, but you want to have all being played by some prewritten scenario... well, that's not the way discovery can be interesting in any way, if you want to play on scenario then there are some good SP mods around there.
P.S. By the way, to be on topic.
Zoners as a whole not screwed up anything, but devs who made them so huge, powerful and stuff. Alot of players depends on need to land on zoner bases too much which makes little sence as well as amount of zoner bases around.
My suggestion which i voiced somewhere before is still the same - different IFF for different zoner bases. So different zoner bases\regions will have a different reputation and screwing up things in taus will not make you hostile to zoners in delta since according to zoner very rp folks on 11 are not giving a damn about zoners in 9999 light years from them.
' Wrote:I still long feel certain irregularities need to fixed. The growth of Zoners, when Disco buffed them up, does not make any sense for the time span of their existance and especially where they were 20yrs ago to where they are now.
[...]
And you don't find it strange that there are new Liberty battleships leaving the shipyards everyday whilst the almighty Gallia has almost none compared to that?
It's still a game;)You see a bit too much in the player numbers:)Besides, some people might argue that there a too much pirates, traders, Corsairs, cardamine sniffers (what are they called again?) etc. on the server. In fact, seeing it inRP, there are way too less of them;)
' Wrote:I still long feel certain irregularities need to fixed. The growth of Zoners, when Disco buffed them up, does not make any sense for the time span of their existance and especially where they were 20yrs ago to where they are now. There is a serious matter with dates that need to be addressed concerning the lore, that or...what the majority will call; a nerf. I'd suggest a redo of the historic dates for the Zoners since this current setup has been established long enough to be entrenched. The point is, it absolutely immpossible for Zoners to have had that much sex and births in less then one generation's worth of time while at that same time interval, simultaneously have these kids operate a sudden massive expansion in resources, tech application, complex shipbuilding up to colony ships...etc....all done by a massive population that was just born and couldn't have reached adolescence yet. Even when doing the math for the birth rate of humans the spike in 20 yrs would not scratch at the numbers presented now. It took how long for humans to reach 6.3 billion on Earth?
Prowler as I said Zoner come from everywhere :
Zoner are people who decided to live outside colonial control. And by that way they are many. Because each time a governement do something they will be people against and who will leave the system. And some of them become Zoner.
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