Titan vs

[Othman]

Btw... Templar is the least agile VHF.

True, and its a real pain to fight a BD fighter in a Templar. I would suggest Corsairs to stick to the Tigershark more oftenly in these kind of mass battles.

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On the uncharted lagoons of anguish, I sail with a canoe made of my sins.

[McNeo]

my votes you can guess too.

But I will point out things as to why each ship wins over the Titan.

This analysis assumes that skill level is equal and each are fighting with a generic style. This is because, if you put myself in a Titan versus a new player in a Sabre, the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Also, the Titan, flown correctly, can hammer the Sabre. BUT, this is easy enough to counter if the Sabre pilot knows how to slide.

Such variables must be removed for an accurate analysis to take place.

The Sabre got much more than a 'slight' boost in this mod version, it was elevated from near-Titan maneuverability to on-par Eagle maneuverability. I know this, because I can turn as hard, if not harder than an Eagle in a Sabre. But leaving style aside, here we go.

The Sabre turns a lot faster than the Titan in terms of time to maximum turn.
The Sabre has less mass than Light Fighters (75 as opposed to 100) and half that of your typical VHF (150).
The Sabre has a forward firing turret.
The Sabre is less of a target, albeit not by much.
The Sabre is more responsive, both in turn and in strafe, due to the smaller mass number (twice as responsive, which counts for a lot when you're dealing with a heavy dodger).

All of that, in exchange for, 2.5k base armour at the maximum?

I will agree that some of those things are vanilla, but the others, such as the increased turn rate (which is the focal point that tipped the balance).

The Blood Dragon. It was nerfed this mod version, and I actually have no problems with its use by the NovaPG or even the GC. But when you start seeing Outcasts in them, not to mention Catamaran bombers (You know who you are, get a Falcata like a real Outcast). If this ship was exclusive to the Blood Dragons, like its supposed to be on the infocard, then there wouldn't be a problem. But this is about ship balance, so here we go.

The BD turns faster than the Titan, to a slightly lesser extent than the Sabre.
The BD has the same mass as the Titan.
The BD has no forward firing turret.
The BD is tiny compared to the Titan. (If you dodge in this like you mean it, you take no hits)
The BD loses no guns when it loses its fins.

It loses more base armour than the Titan, around 4k I think. Doesn't really make the difference if you can't hit it, I'm sure you'll agree.

Lastly, the Raven's Talon. This took a small nerf, contrary to popular belief, in the last mod version. However, it kept its hit box which does not include the back of the engines, which is also paper thin from the front and sides. Vertical strafe means that you don't get hit, boxing makes you impossible.

The RT turns only slightly faster than the Titan, but it is noticeable. Razr, who I train with, usually gets around half a second head start on me before I see him in my front view when its his RT vs my Titan.

The RT turns slightly faster than the Titan.
The RT has the same mass as the Titan.
The RT has no forward firing turret.
The RT is paper thin compared to the Titan.
The RT loses no guns and is not susceptible to missiles.

This time, it loses 3.5k armour. But that doesn't change the fact that it can survive a cannonball, whereas the others in this test cannot.

So you see, all these ships have one or two major advantages over the Titan. These advantages make the gain in armour that the Titan receives negligible to the outcome of the battle. I will list these advantages for you, what they are now, and what they were in vanilla, but I will include the Eagle in the Trio of vanilla VHFs.

Eagle: High maneuverability.
Sabre: High strafe speed.
Titan: High armour.

Now, this is it:

Eagle: High maneuverability.
Sabre: High strafe speed, high maneuverability.
Titan: High armour.

The other two cannot be compared as they were not present in vanilla.

I think we are all in agreement that everyone here prefers VHF's that are fast, over Tank VHFs. This is the reason the QCRF do not have the Templar as their main fighter in terms of usage, choosing instead the Hussar.

Indeed, I would like to extend a deal to the Outcasts, to those of you who are convinced that the current situation is balanced.

The stats on the Titan and Sabre can be switched.
You can have the Colada and Tizona and Rapier and Borroco in exchange for the Inferno.
You can have the Salamanca II and I, and the Angelito's in exhange for the Krackens, The Wyrms, The Pyros and the other ones, which escape my name.

Trust me, if I weren't a hardcore Corsair, I would have an Eagle or Sabre with my perfect loadout. Which would be this, actually.

Eagle/Sabre (makes no difference to me).
6 Black Widows/Krackens (and in the case of a Sabre, a Kracken Turret).
1 Inferno.

My style entails maximum damage in the minimum time. To achieve this, you not only have to be skillful, you have to have the right ship. My style simply doesn't work as well as it should in a Titan, but I could compensate for it when the divide wasn't so big, hence I was less outspoken. Now, I can't compensate for the Titan being one of the least desirable ships.

It doesn't live up to its name in terms of statistics. Not even close.

The ones listed, in that order (Sabre, BD, RT) are the ones I would most prefer to fly. In RP, I love the Titan, it is the shining example of what a ship should be. OORP, I would leave that for the Templar.

[Equinox]

Well... I was always getting the impression that Titan is made for pirating...and that's what it's good for... powerplant make a difference when firing endless stream of projectiles on a trader.

Armor makes a difference as well... same in 1on1.

So in group fights Corsairs should use Centurions... I know only of one flying that one....

In a mixed bomber/fighter group it's better with centurion as well.

Btw... Templar is the least agile VHF.

The thing is why should we be forced to use HFs against every other faction which get to use there better VHFs? doesn't seem right to me.

Also I did switch from my Titan to a Centurion a month or so ago, for one it only turns a tiny bit faster than the Titan and for the second it is about as agile as the Saber, how can the Corsairs HF be about the same as a Outcast VHF? again doesn't seem right to me.

In RP terms the Corsairs are supposed to be one of the best ship builders in Sirius but this does not come across in the ships we get at all.

You would think in the time since SP Corsairs would have evolved there ships to be better in battle not worst, I believe they would have realized that a heavy slow ship does not work against a lighter faster equivalent and changed there ships to compete with the other VHFs.

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[Othman]

There is no way to match a Sabre in a Centurion if the Sabre pilot knows what he is doing, save a fluke score..

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On the uncharted lagoons of anguish, I sail with a canoe made of my sins.

[chopper]

Well, look, Titan is really bad, but there are some that are bad as well.
Avenger for example. Guardian is better, but not much.
Templar is better only because it can't loose guns.
But Brettonians are fighting against Chimaeras, i mean, that most certainly isn't fair, right?
Even Kusari bomber is more agile then Templar, but it turns a bit slower.
Nephtyss is bad.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that Titan is very inferior to Sabre/BD/RT..
And it maybe needs to be a bit better. Actually, it really needs.
Because Outcasts are getting a new gunboat, and there goes the Corsairs last advantage.
So, Corsair need to do something. Upgrading their ships seems reasonable.
But they are not the only ones who need that. Titan isn't the only inferior ship.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[McNeo]

Chopper, you dont see the reason why those three ships above were listed in particular.

The reason is, because those ships are more or less the only ships Corsairs fight, which are in the VHF class.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, the Templar, the Nepthys, and the Avenger are all slow.

But in the end, the Titan shows off the imbalance most noticeably, because it fights two of the top three fighters on a regular basis, and one which used to be the best.

The Templar has been forgone by the QCRF for the Hussar in large battles. In the last TBH battle, we have a Centurion and three Tigersharks. 7/8 Titans were dead in the first five minutes (no, that isn't an exaggeration, I had three TBH death messages on my screen at one point). We were the only ones left.

while the QCRF have an in RP substitute, the TBH do not. We have to go to Friedstadt base to pick up a Tigershark, something that I fully expect to be sanctioned for one day. Our Decurion is the worse aspects of the Centurion plus the worst aspects of the LF class, and the Arwing can't fire CD's due to its bugginess.

So I say again, what options do we have? Just one, the Tigershark, which we shouldn't even fly. Its Rheinland made after all, and we had a war with them.

[Othman]

Well, look, Titan is really bad, but there are some that are bad as well.
Avenger for example. Guardian is better, but not much.

Joking right? Guardian nearly turns as an eagle..

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On the uncharted lagoons of anguish, I sail with a canoe made of my sins.

[mjolnir]

...
7/8 Titans were dead in the first five minutes
...

while the QCRF have an in RP substitute, the TBH do not. We have to go to Friedstadt base to pick up a Tigershark, something that I fully expect to be sanctioned for one day. Our Decurion is the worse aspects of the Centurion plus the worst aspects of the LF class, and the Arwing can't fire CD's due to its bugginess.

The TBH Titans going down had much more to do with the pilots flying them than anything else.... as Julio showed... you know that very well..

Arwing will get fixed in next version.... and Centurion will get an upgrade...

also... powerplant actually makes quite a difference... especially 1on1 (mini on every joust heh?). You kind of forgot it in your comparison.


I still stand believe that Titan doesn't need a big boost....and no those three fighters are not the only ships you fight... tons of independent Corsairs fight anything all over Sirius...
... instead other Corsair fighters should be boosted.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[chopper]

Not really. Guardian doesn't turn nearly like an eagle.
It turns similar to a Viper mk1. Pretty much the same.
That is a lot less then Eagle, BD, Sabre or Wrath.
I said "not much better" comparing to Avenger, not Titan.

McNeo, I agree. You have no substitutes yes. That's why I said improving Centurion and leaving Titan for pirating.
Or even giving a new VHF to Corsairs, and leaving Titan in game as well.
So, they would have 2 VHF's, big deal. Some factions have 2 gunboats, 2 battleships, 2 cruisers.. And no one complains.

Also, anyone took a look on LPI - LH event? It can be compared with light HF's vs VHF's fight.
Patriots are more agile, smaller hitbox, but have less energy, less guns and smaller gun class then Daggers.
And again it's not balanced. Patriot is simply put a better LF, because it's more LF then a Dagger.
But, that's how it is. The fact is that agility and size are most important factors, and not everyone can be good in those.
That is the reason why Kusari/BD ships are pretty much better then any other ships.
They have both.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[Unseelie]

A Titan built for pirating is ridiculous.
I pirate in the BD, I pirate in a Hussar.
There's not one reason why a lighter, faster ship isn't better for piracy.
Is it any wonder that corsairs all pirate in M26 Gunboats?

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