Updated System Cull - List & Discussion

[Lythrilux]

Omicron-74 is being partially merged with Kappa. There will be Zoner, Corsair, and Gammu AI elements within. Each faction's bases will be fairly isolated from the others so as to prevent any immediate dangers, however non-allied interaction is generally good as a whole. The assumed deadliness of the system can be toned down a smidgen to make human outposts feasible, but given what the Omicrons are, that's a given.

As such, it will be a more integrated system with many of the aforementioned properties that we look for. This combines a guard system with what some still consider an "easter egg" system, making neither what they were. Much like other systems with multiple names inRP, Kappa and 74 can be considered synonyms. The Zoners will still have Omega-49, Omicron Theta, and Baffin as their "home" systems.

The problem isn't necessarily how we can mesh Zoners into the system though, the crux of the issue is how to re-integrate the AI into such a home whilst keeping within the bounds of their lore. Or just at least the option that would require the least retconns and large lore re-writes.

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[Jeremy Hunter]

It's impossible to really power game Omi-100, but I digress from that.

Thank you for telling us the reasons, though I'm eith Blod. Removing 'Derry seems to really be bad. Plus now we have to contend with a random planet appearing in a system that never had it.


By "we" I mean Disco has a whole. I'm not a Molly, I just get theit whiskey.

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May you ever walk in the Light, Shizune.

[HassLHoFF™]

Well, I personally don't agree with this extremely system cutting. I would try to improve the alignment of the systems instead of removing them. Like in a basic single player game. You can go the straight way or you can go left or right and find something interesting. Something I seriously have a problem with, the mod lacks in discovery.

Unlike shrinking the game, make systems special, dangerous, adventurous. This shrinking won't support players interaction as it does currently. There are already hotspots for interaction. If so, focus on creating more of these instead of going the minimalism way.

Similar to this.


@Teerin What do you expect from this downgrade though?

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[Blodwyn O'Driscoll]

I honestly tried my very best to think of ways to keep it, and pushed the other story/system planning developers to do the same, but I was alone in that regard. Several lore contradictions were also pointed out to me, and have since convinced me that this is the proper path to take here.

I would like to believe you, honestly.
But as far as i remember the talk we had about Londonderry, on skype, i got the distinct feeling here that i was already decided that Londonderry will be gone, for the discussion we had, relvolved mostly around where should the Molly bases be placed. So....

Anyway, so we're now about lore contradictions... it's funny thoses issues didn't come up during the talk we had.
And honestly ( again ), i would like to have thoses published here, so that everyone could know about them.
I, personally, think that thoses don't exist , just a smokescreen... so i'm very curious.

Also, unlike many factions, the Mollys will actually be able to keep all of their bases from 'Derry, plus a toned down Cork. These will be placed in locations that fit the region better,

Oh , how lucky we are !!! we're keeping pixel bases, WHILE HALF OUR LORE, HISTORY, CURRENT OBJECTIVES, AND HALF OUR DIPLOMACY WILL BE DELETED OR RETCONNED WITH DERRY.
Great, there's no reason to pissed, then.


So thoses bases will be placed in locations that fit the region better ?
Oh yeah i remember the proposals that have been made during our long talks.
Like, placing the smelters or the shipyard in O-49... i can't remember which one. Delightful isn't it ?
We all know that Mollys are drunken bastards. But, would they have been such fools to build their vital assets right in front of the corsair frontline ?
And let's admit they did it for whatever stupid reason... the first thing they would have done once the corsairs would pose a threat to the molly , would be dismantling the facility to re-build it in a safer place.
So i'm not sure we're talking about the same things when it comes to fitting the region better

and may in fact keep alive the reasons for the Omega conflict. You don't even have to be that creative to come up with ideas for that.

Keeping the reasons, or the Omega conflict...

I guess i ain't listened here . Let sum it up : if Derry never existed, then, there was never an Omega conflict for the Mollys. So i don't see how something that never existed could be kept alive.
Great job, devs, all the diplomacy, the alliances, the "omega triumvirat", the battles for O-49, all what we have done thoses past years.... PSSHHHHH, GONE WITH DERRY !

Unlike Londonderry, it will be able to sit in a place with viable, non-redundant connections and get to incorporate additional IFFs inside.

Oh i wish it was only about non-redundant connections, as we were opened to new connections when we talked about that, or altered previous one.. but, i guess Derry deletion was already planned , back then.

Gameplay itself broke down into three key aspects: transit, destination, and encounter

Same here, i remember we talked about thoses three aspects, and that we could make the changes necessarry to fit thoses parameters. But it was put aside, again in the discussion.



Now what ? Would you think that the Molly players will just watch the reasons for something like ten years of rp, just deleted because some devs thought it is an improvement ? ( while we can serisouly doubt that, by the way ).
Anyway, if that happens, the faction is done... So there is nothing to lose fighting to keep Derry, even if it's not in its current form.




Now, i know that you Teerin, is not the only dev, and could be held accountable for this alone. But as you're the only one that did show up... Sorry about that

[Durandal]

It was discussed again several hours ago. Londonderry will be kept, moved in Poole's place with Poole's assets integrated into it, and should be able to continue existing without any retcons. There will be a lawful presence in the system as well as a Corsair presence, but we can always work out how to justify this with the existing lore.

[Jeremy Hunter]

It was discussed again several hours ago. Londonderry will be kept, moved in Poole's place with Poole's assets integrated into it, and should be able to continue existing without any retcons. There will be a lawful presence in the system as well as a Corsair presence, but we can always work out how to justify this with the existing lore.

Awesome news Durandal.

[Blodwyn O'Driscoll]

It was discussed again several hours ago. Londonderry will be kept, moved in Poole's place with Poole's assets integrated into it, and should be able to continue existing without any retcons. There will be a lawful presence in the system as well as a Corsair presence, but we can always work out how to justify this with the existing lore.

Awesome news Durandal.

This is indeed good news, this system merge is an interresting basis to work around.
Do not hesitate to contact us to adjust the details concerning the lore...

[Lythrilux]

I'm going to advocate for the deletion of Omicron-100 and the deletion of Londonderry, as well as any other Guard system out there. Whilst less so for the Mollys - I know how easy it is for Order players to suddenly jump on this post and throw my point off and consider that I'm making this post out of spite or some other ooRP bollocks. Well, I'm not. Not entirely at least. But nothing here is aimed at Order| or Order players. Omicron-100 is the example here because it's the one I can relate to the most and my own treatement in the community relates to that.

I think it's really bad for the community/RP if we keep guard systems in the mod. It creates loads of implications if we bring them into the RP enviroment. More so than people think.

They encourage people to invest time into a non-canon system, and then when threatened with deletion they unfairly hold the devs at gunpoint and label them tyrants for wanting to keep mod quality intact. Not only are they a waste of time invested for devs, but for players as well. They also encourage factions to inflate their positions, which causes even more problems for mod lore and mod consistency.

Case and point: Operation Spear. Nothing wrong with the outcome of the event itself. The RP behind is extremely dubious though. It's riddled with holes. And an extreme case of double standards that arise from it.

Post-Minor: Core and Order had new holes torn open in them by the Nomads. Both sides were decimated, to put it simply. Up until the Delta story events, the story with the two factions was that their numbers and resources had shrunk greatly. They were beaten and batterd and retreated back to their own territories.

When I started up Core| (disclaimer: the topic here isn't really official factions, the faction itself is just relevant becauase it's related to the npc faction revival) I had the intention of trying to represent those changes/struggle wherever possible. I created things like the supplies board. Did RP to show how we needed to get help from other factions to get us the resources we needed to keep the war machine rolling. Whilst undoubtedly I could probably have done a lot more RP, I did my best to fit the current mod lore and bring the faction up to speed from it's BHG Core past.

Order however... what has Order done since then? It would certainly put my mind at ease a little bit more if someone could point me out to some material. But from what I've seen, this entire time since Minor Order was re-building their forces in Omicron-100. A guard system. A non-canon guard system. They had no external help, they did it all on their own secretly inside Omicron-100. Canonically, Order right now has a bunch of holes because the current Order RP rests on the shoulders of non-canon material.

Now, what I think is amazing is that I am continually railed and hounded for how I explain Core's power/size/influence and where they came from etc. It doesn't matter how much I rewrite my lore, or how many millions of pages of watered down fan ficiton I write, people complain. In many cases it feels like these people complain for the sake of complaining. A bit after we got official I still felt unsure about my lore. Even months after I had still been doing rewrites. Now that I was able to rewrite my lore with the Story Team involved too, I am fully confident that Core now fits in lore-wise with the mod. And even today, I'm still writing more and more lore to expand on every detail possible.

Meanwhile no one asks any questions about Order. No one brings up the validity of Omicron-100, or how it has affected the Operaton Spear event. They don't get hounded constantly by complaints and no one is rattling their cages. They just said they did something, and it's the story the mod and the community roles with without asking any questions whatsoever. The Order NPC faction gets a free ticket through RP-logic-land and gets to slide into the mod they want, no matter how big the puzzle piece is. I can't go a month without some pompus arsehole starting a skype debate about how much sense my lore makes, with me having to drag through the same collection of roleplay links I always drag through.

Applying this to Mollys, there could be similiar cases. There could be similiar cases in the future. I don't pay as much attention to Bretonia, so my knowledge is limited.

But as I can see in this thread people have rallied to the staff about how "unfair" it'd be to delete their guard system, even at the offer of placing the assets into a system where things will make MORE SENSE. A system that was 'roleplayed' with a purchase 500 million credits. These systems have been decreed not being canon as part of Disco lore. But this isn't the biggest issue.

The biggest issue with Guard Systems is that they set up oppertunities for huge double standards and create big inconsistencies beyond the single faction they attach to. Beyond that the fact that there's detrimental implications for getting a non-canon system and assets within it inolved in a canon storyline event, other factions in the same enviroment then either have to scale themselves up, down or do god what knows to make sure everything stays consistent. And guess what happens when some of those factions try to do that? They get unfairly hounded by the community because they're trying to scale up with a prepetrator that gets no backlash at all.

So if we want to keep consistency, keep double standards to a minimum, keep fairness across all factions then we need to delete Guard Systems. Since we've already talked about Derry, there's no reason why the assets inside 100 can just not be deguarded and thrown into Omicron-Mu instead. But even then, all Guard system assets could be seen as bloats of power/influence/size scaling.

Guard systems just create problems for everyone, and they allow a faction to get away with bloating themselves up or powergaming without needing to answer to anyone for it. And when it comes to placing them on the chopping block, the owner faction just plays the victim card and holds Devs at gunpoint - insisting that all their non-canon RP goes down the drain and reduces the credibility/integrity of the faction if it goes. When arguably, the deletion/removal of Guard System increases not only mod quality, but the quality of the owner faction. And hell, there's Guard Systems that have been deleted or merged with other systems. How come those factions are forced to either 'like it or lump it' but other factions can get away with it?

(and funny how some Guard Systems are kept but a factions inRP Caps that aren't in a Guard System or Guarded just get deleted because the system modder can get away with doing it ))) )

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[Omicron]

Have you considered that problem with Core is your very person and your infinite Core zealotry? All you really care about is pixel might and greatness of your faction alone at expense of everyone else: this time Mollys and Order today - evidenced by your post, when I was in fact the one attempting to help everyone (and influenced system map sufficiently to give you link to Rheinland through Rho rather than to let it rot in corner or be deleted). Why you must be such pain to everyone you're supposed to OORP'ly co-operate with?

P.S. I advocated for de-guarding Londonderry and replacing Poole with it since beginning.

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[Lythrilux]

Have you considered that problem with Core is your very person and your infinite Core zealotry? All you really care about is pixel might and greatness of your faction alone at expense of everyone else: this time Mollys and Order today - evidenced by your post, when I was in fact the one attempting to help everyone (and influenced system map sufficiently to give you link to Rheinland through Rho rather than to let it rot in corner or be deleted). Why you must be such pain to everyone you're supposed to OORP'ly co-operate with?

P.S. I advocated for de-guarding Londonderry and replacing Poole with it since beginning.

Since I am the leader of Core it's quite a forward observation to immediately accuse me of zealotry and brush it off as such, but my post wasn't pushing my own faction forward. It's about equality for every faction in the mod. If I didn't point it out enough in my post, I'm trying not to personalize things too much and keep it general. Operation Spear, Omicron-100 and Core examples are just good and modern examples of double standards. I think it's quite hypocritical to accuse me of wanting pixel might and greatness for my faction, when you're the one defending to keep Guard Systems - or Omicron-100 specifically - in the mod. As I said I'm completely content with the position my faction has in the mod right now. I'm not asking the staff to give me an Omicron-101 to scale up with Order. That would be bad.

Fair enough if you advocated for de-guarding Londonderry, that's a good approach. All Guard systems need to follow a similiar approach, but then again as I said in my post it's not necessairly a good thing either that we're just merging those assets into Poole instead. Removing the system and those assets within it, which are non-canon themselves, and then tweaking the NPC faction itself (which may actually involve bringing some of those assets back, which is fair) is the approach we should be going forward with. These factions don't need these systems. They're not canon. They don't affect the mod lore. But bringing them into the RP enviroment creates more holes than it plugs. Which is the problem. And to preserve mod quality, we shouldn't be doing that. And shame on those factions trying to force the Devs to keep them in, especially when other factions have had to deal with their Guard Systems already being clipped or are still on the chopping block.

I'd suggest you try to refrain from personalising it yourself though, and brushing it off because it's your faction's Guard System. I think it's worse that as you a junior Dev yourself are immediately brushing off a problem as bias simply because I am posting. There is no expense as neither of those two factions Guard Systems are canon.

As I said, lets keep it general.

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