Version 5.0 "Fire and Fortune" - Everything I DISLIKED Part 1 - Balance and Stuff

[Dark Chocolate]

I really hate using this argument but I don't see how you could convince me that missiles are the reason for your death in either of those two situations and that you wouldn't still have just died outright to mortars or even just cruiser tachyons. You even shot down a very good deal of the incoming ordnance in the first one. There was very obviously a lot that went wrong before missiles were even a factor. I agree that missiles are very efficient damage wise but.. if dying to spam is your issue, that honestly speaks to me that you need to look at your fleet fight positioning moreso than missiles being the core issue. They have to be in range before you can spam them.

Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles.
You really don't see a problem there?
Click missiles to win.. Click more missiles to win more. Click more damn missiles. All battles same.

Also... That's Sarwar's video. Check mine here Discover MissileLancer check other videos on my channel too. Please.

. Cruisers have the much easier job of just sitting on them by being faster.

Yes. My point exactly. You can sit on them GBs and yeet them with Impacts.. You don't necessarily need light mortars.
Any cruiser, missiles pluse impacts is most viable. BC goes 2 impacts/2 missiles or just straight up quad missiles. No other guns as viable as these.

[Sarwar]

To be perfectly honest, the constant I see between the two missile examples are that you're isolated or overextended and heavily outnumbered, with your friendly support too far away to be of any help clearing your tail.

that is usual thing of disco.
real problem is ....The amount of Focus and Power Core you waste on avoiding missiles, leaves you with nothing to return fire or dodge in coming fire effectively cuz there is no effective counter to OP Missiles with CMs performing poorly + Low CM Ammo is extra topping on pizza.

On the other hand...A pilot who is using missiles, just need to Right Click and there you go...job is done.
it is "less effort vs Extreme effort"...RIP Balance

[Levenna]

Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles. Incoming missiles.
You really don't see a problem there?

My point is, how would either of those two situations gone differently if they were mortars instead of missiles?

Yes. My point exactly. You can sit on them GBs and yeet them with Impacts.. You don't necessarily need light mortars.
Any cruiser, missiles pluse impacts is most viable. BC goes 2 impacts/2 missiles or just straight up quad missiles. No other guns as viable as these.

Gunboats are far too agile to hit with impacts, you need the mortar for the velocity. I can dodge impacts all day every day, mortars are much much harder. If Antonio only had impacts in this video for example, I frankly probably would have won. You aren't going to hit a competent gunboat consistently with guns that travel at 450ms, and there's a reason he only fired his impacts I think once during that entire duel.

Edit:

Also... That's Sarwar's video. Check mine here Discover MissileLancer check other videos on my channel too. Please.

Alright, I watched it. You got unlucky a couple times with missiles detonating at their max distance. As for the cruiser duel, frankly missiles are *not* good cruiser v cruiser weapons. I will gladly conn that Hel on my own LSC to prove this. Equally if you want to play a quad devastator BC against a cruiser of mine, or other missile loadout, I will demonstrate missile dodging with that, too. You can't dodge every missile, but the vast majority are very much dodgeable. I'm currently uploading a duel of my own BC against Haste's cruiser, if you don't want to conn that, as another example, wherein I use a total of 90 marauders and he wins the duel with 30k health left.

---

---

[03.07.2024] LNS-Beast***: we can do this every day but you have to buy bigger stronger ships...and i'll help you

[Lemon]

To be perfectly honest, the constant I see between the two missile examples are that you're isolated or overextended and heavily outnumbered, with your friendly support too far away to be of any help clearing your tail.

that is usual thing of disco.
real problem is ....The amount of Focus and Power Core you waste on avoiding missiles, leaves you with nothing to return fire or dodge in coming fire effectively cuz there is no effective counter to OP Missiles with CMs performing poorly + Low CM Ammo is extra topping on pizza.

On the other hand...A pilot who is using missiles, just need to Right Click and there you go...job is done.
it is "less effort vs Extreme effort"...RIP Balance

I actually love the new missiles, when I play BC in a fleet fight I just first person launch 4 missiles and retreat, play it as old bombers Worst case you take out attention of one player completely, it needs no skill which is good - I have none, and also big indirect buff to missiles there's little opportunity cost for having meme 4x missile loadouts
- the ass gun itself drains core, fast, before you had to think twice as you'd get countered by a snub CD or someone expert at taking down missiles well with flaks. Now? Who cares, your efficiency barely goes down, you can still use your core fully even if someone knows how to dodge missiles and insta shoot them.

They are the only reason why I find the slow boring BC and BS enjoyable - at least some dynamic action happens, and you feel like you are actually doing stuff, if not hitting them at least taking attention - think it's pretty funny people show duel videos like they matter at all for balance of fleet fights where you aren't 1v1 don't play vs one guy with one loadout

[Dark Chocolate]

To be perfectly honest, the constant I see between the two missile examples are that you're isolated or overextended and heavily outnumbered, with your friendly support too far away to be of any help clearing your tail.

that is usual thing of disco.
real problem is ....The amount of Focus and Power Core you waste on avoiding missiles, leaves you with nothing to return fire or dodge in coming fire effectively cuz there is no effective counter to OP Missiles with CMs performing poorly + Low CM Ammo is extra topping on pizza.

On the other hand...A pilot who is using missiles, just need to Right Click and there you go...job is done.
it is "less effort vs Extreme effort"...RIP Balance

I agree with everything this chad has just said.

My point is, how would either of those two situations gone differently if they were mortars instead of missiles?

With the current rate of fire the mortars have which is like every 2.5 seconds and worse if opponent decides to chainfire, It barely makes any difference as there would be mortars flying to you from everywhere and since the kiting has been nerfed hard, There's little chance to fight back.

But if you are suggesting if it were something other than missiles and the goddamn rapidfire BS mortars, I'd probably have more chance of survival without my attention diverted to dodging 500 missiles with little counter play.

Gunboats are far too agile to hit with impacts

Yes but I was speaking about Cruiser loadouts. Should i really need to bother with putting Light Mortars over my cruiser just to fight GBs? When I can just roll with Cruiser Missiles+Impacts. I could use primaries to shoot GB when it is in range, And as you said Cruisers have more speed and can sit on GBs, If I manage to get too close I could even use impacts otherwise primaries fine. Thing is, the best combo on cruisers is Missiles+Impacts coz they beat basically every other setup. I'm saying may be Light mortar should have more use than to just be against missiles, which would happen if missiles are not so damn good at being artillery. I'm saying impact cannons are wayyyy too good. If they gonna have that high dps+efficiency, may be they shouldn't be firing 360.

Alright, I watched it. You got unlucky a couple times with missiles detonating at their max distance.

I get unlucky so money times I have lost count. It feels like every other time the missile will blow up in my face even when I dodge it well and I'd take max damage. Is it necessary for them to blow up like that? Can they go a bit far and explode? Please do watch other videos on same channel if you got time. Every battle after the patch is missile spam. I don't think it's good balance.

frankly missiles are *not* good cruiser v cruiser weapons.

And yet they work so well every time i use it against people. Or when people use it against me on when I'm on a cruiser. You are saying the counter play is enough yes?. I guess it's just skill issue then.

I will gladly conn that Hel on my own LSC to prove this. Equally if you want to play a quad devastator BC against a cruiser of mine, or other missile loadout, I will demonstrate missile dodging with that, too. You can't dodge every missile, but the vast majority are very much dodgeable. I'm currently uploading a duel of my own BC against Haste's cruiser, if you don't want to conn that, as another example, wherein I use a total of 90 marauders and he wins the duel with 30k health left.

See this is the problem. You guys are Aces. Especially you with an LSC like super ultra pro max Ace level. I'm just a regular everyday normal player. You'd dismantle me regardless of what setup you or me use. I suspect the playtesting being done for the balance is also between aces. Like, Is there anyone with like medium/normal/average skill level in the playtesting team? ... Moreover, Is playtesting done only in duels? Is there play testing done for fleet battles? Like 5 vs 5? Or atleast 3 vs 3? Or against uneven odds?

I don't know why it is so hard to prove it to you guys. But missiles are really a problem. A big problem. a lot of other things are. But then again, It's just my opinion. If balancers think it's fine, I guess We folks just have to live with it. or play something else lmao. It's sad tho. I love this game and I don't want to quit it. I wish these issues are fixed.

[Dark Chocolate]

I actually love the new missiles, when I play BC in a fleet fight I just first person launch 4 missiles and retreat, play it as old bombers Worst case you take out attention of one player completely, it needs no skill which is good - I have none, and also big indirect buff to missiles there's little opportunity cost for having meme 4x missile loadouts

Discovery Clicklancer. Click missiles to win.

it's pretty funny people show duel videos like they matter at all for balance of fleet fights where you aren't 1v1 don't play vs one guy with one loadout

EXACTLY. Thank you for point that out man.

[Lemon]

Hey you there quiet, stop using my words against me by reposting by hem without change! My point is missiles are fun and cool and good and balanced and team did a fantastic job and they are the saving grace of the slow big caps, don't stop the fun! Don't like missiles? Who's stopping ya fam, just get missiles too? It's not like we have pay to win code missiles, everyone can get em! It's just the new meta is all

Version 5.0 "Incoming Missile" is here and I love it

[Levenna]

See this is the problem. You guys are Aces. Especially you with an LSC like super ultra pro max Ace level. I'm just a regular everyday normal player. You'd dismantle me regardless of what setup you or me use. I suspect the playtesting being done for the balance is also between aces. Like, Is there anyone with like medium/normal/average skill level in the playtesting team? ... Moreover, Is playtesting done only in duels? Is there play testing done for fleet battles? Like 5 vs 5? Or atleast 3 vs 3? Or against uneven odds?

I get what you're saying here, I really do, believe it or not. I was for a loooong long time just a normal everyday player too, but it's really simple things like for example, if you go towards the opponent instead of kiting away from them, missiles aren't good in cruiser duels, they just don't hit, I really wish I had a recorded example but sadly I don't. Like you don't have to perfectly play, you just have to be aware of what the counterplay is. I don't think everyone should be at a SUPER GIGA AMAZING ACE level, but I think learning basic counters is perfectly valid. I will, however, say that it should probably be on people like me to actually put out that information, though.

Likewise, a lot of grief in fleet battles can be solved by getting on VC with your buddies and just communicating that way.
"Oh shit I'm being dived!"
"Alright come to me I'll clear your tail, you keep focusing on shooting down the missiles."
That kind of thing isn't too bad, at least I don't think so?

Also I will straight up admit I wasn't a part of the group fight playtests, but I can at least tell you they did happen in.. I think at least 3v3? Maybe slightly more. Uneven odds the game isn't balanced around though, since balancing for uneven odds is, well, not balanced really if the odds *are* even obviously. As for the skill level of the playtesting team, sure it's probably on average not representative of the entire playerbase, I will definitely grant you that.



Edit:
With relation to countering missiles in a cruiser v cruiser (which I think is valid enough to be worried about, it happens outside conn pretty frequently), I have carefully constructed an advanced diagram. Tl;dr, missiles don't turn good close in, so you just get close and the missile can't really do much.




Edit 2: I just realised I've voiced this in playtest but literally nowhere else, I don't think cruisers should personally have much of an easier time dodging or otherwise dealing with missiles personally. The thing with cruisers is that, as a class, they don't have the depth or complexity in terms of something like battlecruisers, so a lot of their skill expression (pretty much all of it tbh) is tied up in mechanical movement skill. Giving them an easier means of dealing with missiles like, for example, flaks, kind of greatly decreases the skill gap in cruisers. This is also a bigger issue of "cruisers kinda need some more depth" but it is the way it is for now at least.

---

---

[03.07.2024] LNS-Beast***: we can do this every day but you have to buy bigger stronger ships...and i'll help you

[Schxer]

I get what you're saying here, I really do, believe it or not. I was for a loooong long time just a normal everyday player too, but it's really simple things like for example, if you go towards the opponent instead of kiting away from them, missiles aren't good in cruiser duels, they just don't hit, I really wish I had a recorded example but sadly I don't. Like you don't have to perfectly play, you just have to be aware of what the counterplay is. I don't think everyone should be at a SUPER GIGA AMAZING ACE level, but I think learning basic counters is perfectly valid. I will, however, say that it should probably be on people like me to actually put out that information, though.

Likewise, a lot of grief in fleet battles can be solved by getting on VC with your buddies and just communicating that way.
"Oh ***** I'm being dived!"
"Alright come to me I'll clear your tail, you keep focusing on shooting down the missiles."
That kind of thing isn't too bad, at least I don't think so?

Also I will straight up admit I wasn't a part of the group fight playtests, but I can at least tell you they did happen in.. I think at least 3v3? Maybe slightly more. Uneven odds the game isn't balanced around though, since balancing for uneven odds is, well, not balanced really if the odds *are* even obviously.


Edit:
With relation to countering missiles in a cruiser v cruiser (which I think is valid enough to be worried about, it happens outside conn pretty frequently), I have carefully constructed an advanced diagram. Tl;dr, missiles don't turn good close in, so you just get close and the missile can't really do much.

So it's all skill issue then. Thanks for clearing that up.
I guess our experiences of being on the numerically lower side, and having no option but to kite, then simply getting blasted by missiles, mortars, primaries and having to take care of all that while covering for other caps, dodging the oncoming fire, also having to lead the fleet so as not to end up in Nebula or debris are totally invalid and it's just because of skill issue. I totally agree.

[Levenna]

So it's all skill issue then. Thanks for clearing that up.
I guess our experiences of being on the numerically lower side, and having no option but to kite, then simply getting blasted by missiles, mortars, primaries and having to take care of all that while covering for other caps, dodging the oncoming fire, also having to lead the fleet so as not to end up in Nebula or debris are totally invalid and it's just because of skill issue. I totally agree.

I mean, I'm not sure there's a way to satisfy your issue of just being outnumbered beyond skill to be honest. If you start balancing weapons for uneven odds, all that'll mean is that the weapons or mechanics designed to help you even the odds are just going to be used against you in greater numbers and be an even greater curbstomp.


Disclaimer: I should add that any opinions I'm listing here are my own and like, not at all reflective of anyone on the balance team lol, I'm a playtester but it's not like I have "final say" on anything whatsoever

---

---

[03.07.2024] LNS-Beast***: we can do this every day but you have to buy bigger stronger ships...and i'll help you