' Wrote:In this case mercenaries are denied by LN, not the admins. Manhattan is free food if no one gets to witness it. If you're surrounded by LN, commanded to halt and dock on a Liberty base that's bad. You dig? Common sense?
You missed my point. Mercenaries are allowed to dock on Manhattan based on "server rules" ... but are considered banned by the "LN faction laws."
So ... my question is ... what takes precedence? Server rules or faction laws? Faction laws can ONLY be enforced by the faction that created the law ... admins should NOT sanction something that is enforceable ONLY by the faction. The admins do not work for the factions and factions cannot rely on admins to do their job.
Cardamine and Artifacts are one thing ... mercenary bans and embargoes are quite another.
' Wrote:#2 ... I do hope you treat traders quick-docking to avoid being pirated in the same way. Many times I've engaged a trader who quickly turned and docked on Yanagi or another base "I" am allied with. If I start posting violation reports for these traders ... will they receive the same sanction? Not to mention specific faction ID's docking on their enemy's stations to avoid my piracy (for example, Kruger docking with GMG's Naha base in Sigma 13 ... Rheinland and GMG are not friends).
I do believe these things have been sanctioned in the past....
But, anyway, why are we arguing about what Freelancer doesn't do, instead of what it does do? Did it occur to anyone that it might not be the ships, but the Planets that are scaled wrong? Because the space shuttle re-enters Earth's atmosphere without a docking ring doesn't mean that the ships of Freelancer can easily, otherwise they would be doing so easily, and docking rings wouldn't exist.
Mooring Fixtures exist for the same reason, because large transports cannot escape the atmosphere of a planet. Maybe the force of gravity and their mass has something to do with that? Most of the planets have a larger radius and mass than Earth (Only main planet I looked into that had a smaller radius and mass was NL), and so their force of gravity would be higher (And in the case of NB, much higher). I would love to argue physics here, but, the physics in Freelancer aren't the best (As we all know) and an exact material list isn't given for the Advanced Train, though, we could extrapolate using Densities and whatever, but, lots of room for error there. I think that we can assume because we can't enter the atmosphere ingame that it is physically impossible for the majority of us to enter the atmosphere and then escape it. If not, well, that's what text RPGs are for, isn't it? To make your own game up?
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
1. I completely agree with this sanction. Guys use your common sense when it comes to RP. If you've been chased all over the system by the LN then proceed to dock on Manhattan after the LN has Rped to lock down the mooring fixture/whatever thats just shouldnt be possible...
As for the "adv train can go star skipping so it can go into atmosphere" excuse, star skipping really shouldnt be possible either but meh whatever
' Wrote:You've gotta separate planets from stations. The docking ring is a game mechanic to make it possible to land on a planet. Its a flipping game mechanic. When the space shuttle enters Earth's atmosphere ... does it hover outside a docking ring waiting for clearance before entering the atmosphere?
the diffrence is that transports, are huge and have no arrodynamics at all. if they enter the atmosphere then they burn up because they DONT have heat resistent components. unlike the space shuttle. they just stay in orbit and have shuttles unload the cargo.
the docking ring slows ships down so they don't need to reenter the atomsphere at orbital speeds. they just dock with the ring. which slows them down and carrys them into the atomsphere. so they dont need heat resistent panals ether. transports dont fit in the rings.
but to stay on topic.
if you dont get caught, then go on. speed dock. save your self the 7 secounds it would take to do other wise. but if you get caught and are runnning dont speed dock. pleese..
it is out of rp and should get sanctioned. but A.D.M.I.N.'s ARE not allowed to enforce faction laws(well if they want to then they can, but then they should not be A.D.M.I.N's)
if admins start giving out sanctions to players for violating faction rules then i, along with meny players, shall stop playing the best mod since buttered bread(toast is spiffy)
' Wrote:<span style="font-family:Century Gothic">Violence is Golden</span>
' Wrote:I do believe these things have been sanctioned in the past....
But, anyway, why are we arguing about what Freelancer doesn't do, instead of what it does do? Did it occur to anyone that it might not be the ships, but the Planets that are scaled wrong? Because the space shuttle re-enters Earth's atmosphere without a docking ring doesn't mean that the ships of Freelancer can easily, otherwise they would be doing so easily, and docking rings wouldn't exist.
Mooring Fixtures exist for the same reason, because large transports cannot escape the atmosphere of a planet. Maybe the force of gravity and their mass has something to do with that? Most of the planets have a larger radius and mass than Earth (Only main planet I looked into that had a smaller radius and mass was NL), and so their force of gravity would be higher (And in the case of NB, much higher). I would love to argue physics here, but, the physics in Freelancer aren't the best (As we all know) and an exact material list isn't given for the Advanced Train, though, we could extrapolate using Densities and whatever, but, lots of room for error there. I think that we can assume because we can't enter the atmosphere ingame that it is physically impossible for the majority of us to enter the atmosphere and then escape it. If not, well, that's what text RPGs are for, isn't it? To make your own game up?
You've never studied the laws of physics or orbital mechanics have you? Going straight down like we do in Freelancer is like diving into a swimming pool with no water ... you'd be pancaked and whatever survived the impact would burn up before reaching the ground. Not to mention the tremendous explosion that would occur and the shockwave that would follow. You have to enter the atmosphere at a certain angle. If you hit too steep (like a nose dive) ... you end up like a bug on a windshield. If you hit too shallow ... you bounce off the atmosphere like a flat rock skimming across a pond.
Mooring fixtures and docking rings are game mechanics because the programmer didn't take the time or effort to add realism to the game. Same reason trade lanes, planets and such are stationary. In reality you couldn't setup a physical trade lane between planets because the planets would be continuously circling the sun ... and moons and stations orbiting around the planets. Its game mechanics ... has nothing to do with reality. And since everyone here is so dead set on throwing what's "real" into this game for role play purposes ... you've gotta take realism into consideration. I get tired of hearing double speak. Want realism or not? Cause you can't say real in one instance and simulate in another.
And large vessels (in TODAY's setting) cannot land on a planet because they are not built to withstand combat. TODAY's space vessels are built light and cheap. But in the FUTURE ... vessels (I hope) are built with better and stronger materials ... and built to withstand combat (ahem Nuke mines). So they're not likely to fall apart in the atmosphere. Ever watch Star Trek, Firefly, etc? Voyager actually landed on a planet during one episode of ST Voyager. And Firefly (one of Disco's ships ... from the Firefly series) was DESIGNED to fly both in space and within the atmosphere. But the Fireflly in Disco has to dock with a Mooring Fixture. In reality ... if a vessel cannot enter the atmosphere or land on a planet would not dock with a mooring fixture ... it would enter into orbit or dock with a station and take landing craft from the ship to the surface and such. But not a mooring fixture that is touching the atmosphere.
So ... if you wanna go with the logic that these "large vessels" cannot withstand the atmosphere and gravity and such ... maybe these vessels should loose a bit of their hull integrity. Maybe they should not be made to withstand torpedoes or guns or mines and such. Reality or not ... make up your mind.
' Wrote:Mooring fixtures and docking rings are game mechanics because the programmer didn't take the time or effort to add realism to the game. Same reason trade lanes, planets and such are stationary. In reality you couldn't setup a physical trade lane between planets because the planets would be continuously circling the sun ... and moons and stations orbiting around the planets. Its game mechanics ... has nothing to do with reality. And since everyone here is so dead set on throwing what's "real" into this game for role play purposes ... you've gotta take realism into consideration. I get tired of hearing double speak. Want realism or not? Cause you can't say real in one instance and simulate in another.
Erm, ever think that the Trade Lanes would orbit...With the planets? Though, I haven't studied orbital physics, no, I have studied physics, yes. Now, then, we are given these game physics. We can make physics work for those, or we can make up a new game. Pick one...
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
' Wrote:the diffrence is that transports, are huge and have no arrodynamics at all. if they enter the atmosphere then they burn up because they DONT have heat resistent components. unlike the space shuttle. they just stay in orbit and have shuttles unload the cargo.
the docking ring slows ships down so they don't need to reenter the atomsphere at orbital speeds. they just dock with the ring. which slows them down and carrys them into the atomsphere. so they dont need heat resistent panals ether. transports dont fit in the rings.
but to stay on topic.
if you dont get caught, then go on. speed dock. save your self the 7 secounds it would take to do other wise. but if you get caught and are runnning dont speed dock. pleese..
it is out of rp and should get sanctioned. but A.D.M.I.N.'s ARE not allowed to enforce faction laws(well if they want to then they can, but then they should not be A.D.M.I.N's)
if admins start giving out sanctions to players for violating faction rules then i, along with meny players, shall stop playing the best mod since buttered bread(toast is spiffy)
Aerodynamics? So Freelancer is still living in the 20th century eh? Think maybe technology might have advanced a bit? Just maybe?
As for uploading cargo ... using TODAY's 20th century tech ... you can't use the space shuttle to bring up the cargo. Try old fashioned rockets ... better lift capability. Just think ... the ENORMOUS amount of lift and cargo space needed to load a Train. The space shuttle could (maybe) carry 5 units of any commodity. That's a lot of round trips for a shuttle. A bit too expensive.
So ... today's tech ... or future tech?
Oh ... and just how many ships can that mooring fixture hold? And at the altitude the mooring fixture is located ... it would be constantly moving around the planet. Its not in a geostationary orbit so it would not be sitting still. Not to mention being so close to the atmosphere ... adding more mass to the mooring fixture will cause the mooring fixture and all those ships attached to it to burn into the atmosphere. Its called the laws of physics and orbital mechanics.
' Wrote:Erm, ever think that the Trade Lanes would orbit...With the planets? Though, I haven't studied orbital physics, no, I have studied physics, yes. Now, then, we are given these game physics. We can make physics work for those, or we can make up a new game. Pick one...
Yes ... they would orbit as well ... and they would NOT remain in a straight line as a result. Planets orbit around the sun at different velocities (unless they were in the same orbital plane ... which is extremely improbable. There are NO such models in existence (with the exception of planets with moons orbiting them). Bottom line ... the trade lanes would NOT remain aligned ... thus ... no possible way for them to be useful. The planets orbit the sun ... the lanes would orbit the planets at their ends. And the planets are not always aligned. The Earth takes 365.25 days to orbit the sun. Mars take 687 days (nearly twice as long to orbit the sun). So a trade lane between Earth and Mars would be stretched to the point that the middle lane gates would drift away from both planets and likely end up all over the place. Not to mention that each lane gate would be in its own orbit. Bottom line ... in reality ... won't work.
And thank you for admitting our problem. We have "game physics" (another name for "game mechanics"). We've gotta deal with the programmer's limitation. You want reality ... then docking rings and mooring stations don't exist (in role play) ... they're just there because its a game limitation. If you wanna accept that these things exist in real life ... then don't talk to me about reality.
If one wanted to implement something approaching 'real' physics, then you would do away with the trade lanes altogether and have the planets 'orbit' moved about with an auto-updater every game reset.
Unfortunately, for actual planetary landings we shall have to wait for the Next Great Space Sim.
In terms of landings, some sci-fi gets around landing issues by having ships land in the water.
' Wrote:And thank you for admitting our problem. We have "game physics" (another name for "game mechanics"). We've gotta deal with the programmer's limitation. You want reality ... then docking rings and mooring stations don't exist (in role play) ... they're just there because its a game limitation. If you wanna accept that these things exist in real life ... then don't talk to me about reality.
Well, we can think of it in realistic terms while still being within game physics to justify what is occurring. Because real physics prohibit orbital entry and exit while keeping peak combat efficiency, docking rings and mooring fixtures were created.
If that doesn't work, maybe political problems created docking rings and mooring fixtures. Maybe because of the ease of smuggling and the like created ships that were destroyed by the atmosphere, and so efficient ships that were susceptible to the atmosphere to eliminate such problems.
The point is, the game physics we have been given set the realm in which we play the game, we decide the details of the realm and what occurs within the realm, however, we have to play within the realm of the game, and in this instance, ships use orbital elevators and mooring fixtures to dock with planets, not atmospheric entry and re-entry.
[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.
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