Version 5.0 "Fire and Fortune" - Everything I DISLIKED Part 1 - Balance and Stuff

[LuckyOne]

Hey you there quiet, stop using my words against me by reposting by hem without change! My point is missiles are fun and cool and good and balanced and team did a fantastic job and they are the saving grace of the slow big caps, don't stop the fun! Don't like missiles? Who's stopping ya fam, just get missiles too? It's not like we have pay to win code missiles, everyone can get em! It's just the new meta is all

Version 5.0 "Incoming Missile" is here and I love it

Anyway if Lemon is happy with the new missiles the dev team needs to nerf them right into the ground. We can't let Lemon be happy with Disco, can we ?


Jokes aside, kiting just needs to be buffed again. All classes having a pain of managing thruster, energy, flaks AND (shields soon ?) leaves you with no free brainpower capacity to fight back at all. Sure, you could turn and face the 5 people chasing you and end it faster, but is that really the Disco we want ? Kiting could be perfectly countered before by having a dedicated CDer, the new changes are complexity for the sake of complexity.

[Lemon]

The heavy cap movement and power core changes are like wire in the eye for my game enjoyment, at least let me have them as missile silos I press and chill on in fights for god's sakes!

[The_Godslayer]

Edit:
With relation to countering missiles in a cruiser v cruiser (which I think is valid enough to be worried about, it happens outside conn pretty frequently), I have carefully constructed an advanced diagram. Tl;dr, missiles don't turn good close in, so you just get close and the missile can't really do much.

While this is a work of art that deserves to be in a museum if not a cathedral, I must raise you Vandals. There's no amount of perfect alignment that is getting me away from a vandal. That mf is going to hunt me down, sniff out my IP address, and leave 500 pennies in my pillowcase.

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I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.

"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"

[Schxer]

I mean, I'm not sure there's a way to satisfy your issue of just being outnumbered beyond skill to be honest. If you start balancing weapons for uneven odds, all that'll mean is that the weapons or mechanics designed to help you even the odds are just going to be used against you in greater numbers and be an even greater curbstomp.

I'm not sure you understand the issue here. Why don't you consider the experiences of people before the patch? The kiting side, which is obviously because of lower numbers, even while having a disadvantage could deal with it through skillful plays. Sure we didn't win them all but we could at least reduce their numbers before falling to zero ourselves. However, you can now say goodbye to your skills because every ship launching missiles at you while also using the guns, and high fire rate guns at that plus the new close ranges for all weapons, how much can you dodge? Do you get an opening to return fire among all that? Do you even have powercore left after using the secondaries and flaks for the missiles? Oh wait more missiles are incoming.
Also, let's not forget the slowed cap movement and the 'drifting' so you can turn but you'll keep moving in the same direction for a few seconds. I don't have to tell you it makes all the difference with strafing out of the window since you can do that once every 15 seconds or so now.

[Lord Caedus]

Lev I know you're keeping an eye on this thread, and you have a lot more recent experience in this than I do, so feel free to correct any points I might get wrong here. From the two different videos I watched, the larger overall issue was that the ship in question was in a scenario where it was significantly outnumbered by its opponents. You would've just as easily been killed in that situation by the enemy ships firing mortars at you until you died, the weapon being missiles or torpedoes in particular aren't going to be a difference here. Secondly, in most of the clips shown, the ship being hit by the missiles isn't attempting to maneuver to dodge them at all, the ships are at best shooting at the missiles to attempt to kill them with their guns and occasionally launching counter measures. In the clip of the BC fighting the Corsairs over New London in particular, almost the entirety of the torpedoes being fired are from a singular bomber, and the BC is making almost no attempt to shoot said bomber or to maneuver to avoid the incoming fire.

In the second video's clip of the Hel, you're again in a scenario where you're being fired at by multiple enemies with no real hope of escape. You get hit by a battlecruiser that has a quad missile loadout from what I saw. Let's entertain the possibility that you're fighting that ship alone for a moment. You're in a Hel, which is a relatively small target and are much more maneuverable than the LABC. Your opponent has all of his cruiser heavy slots devoted to missiles, which means he's giving up about half of his firepower to weapons that can only fire forward. Your best bet is to attempt to get around him and fire on him from his sides and rear, where he has more limited firepower, and you mostly only have to worry about his heaviest turret, which turns extremely slowly and will be hard to keep trained on a ship like the Hel.

In the next clip, you get over extended and focused down by at least three ships. You're not going to survive that fight unless you turn around much earlier and stay with your own group. I'm going to reiterate the point from earlier. Almost all of these scenarios involve the ship in question being cut off from any support due to over extending, or from being significantly outnumbered, or both. Yes, missile spam can be a pain, but the fact that these enemies are using missiles isn't what is getting you killed in particular in any of these situations.

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[Arcana]

Battleships and dreadnoughts are meant to be slow and to be destroyed by smaller ships in general. In cruisers and gunboats you have so many options to get rid of the missiles or to slow down their hit rate. CM, CD, your thurster to cut them off chasing you and guns. Even if you are being focused with missile barrage, if your team is near, they will cover you and shoot the ships focusing you. It is true that you can eventually run out of energy while trying to get rid of the missiles, but that is why you have a team. Battlecruisers can mount solarises on the heavy slots and you can shoot missiles easy. But this is up to you and your loadout. What ships your ship is meant to fight. There is no best ship vs every class of ships.

[Levenna]

I'm not sure you understand the issue here. Why don't you consider the experiences of people before the patch? The kiting side, which is obviously because of lower numbers, even while having a disadvantage could deal with it through skillful plays. Sure we didn't win them all but we could at least reduce their numbers before falling to zero ourselves. However, you can now say goodbye to your skills because every ship launching missiles at you while also using the guns, and high fire rate guns at that plus the new close ranges for all weapons, how much can you dodge? Do you get an opening to return fire among all that? Do you even have powercore left after using the secondaries and flaks for the missiles? Oh wait more missiles are incoming.
Also, let's not forget the slowed cap movement and the 'drifting' so you can turn but you'll keep moving in the same direction for a few seconds. I don't have to tell you it makes all the difference with strafing out of the window since you can do that once every 15 seconds or so now.

I'll put it to you this way, if trying to match your opponent pound-for-pound isn't working so well, why not try something else? Gunboats, for instance, are *exceptionally* good at pulling opposing enemies apart, I've had moments where I'll harass 2 or 3 battlecruisers that will split off and chase me but can't rejoin the wider fight since I can just CD them if they disengage while dodging a lot of their fire. Kiting, as you correctly observe, is kind of just decidedly *not good* in the current meta, be it in duels or in fleets, so don't kite, find a way to fight upfront but on your own terms.

I'd direct you towards this fight between LN and outcasts as an example. A few gunboats and bombers (and I think one cruiser) took out a relatively equal sized force of cruisers and battlecruisers by remaining flexible with their targeting, but remaining relatively coordinated and not getting isolated, while picking on targets that isolated themselves. In your guys' case, this may end up taking the form of using bombers, gunboats and cruisers to punch above your weight when you're outnumbered.

Failing this, you could also honestly just reach out to your opponents to try and figure out more fair fights, It's not fun to get curbstomped again and again facing 1.5x your number.

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[03.07.2024] LNS-Beast***: we can do this every day but you have to buy bigger stronger ships...and i'll help you

[LuckyOne]

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Balancing (only) for duels is bad. Most of the gameplay in Disco revolves around one side being (heavily, even) outnumbered. Not fun when your only options in that case are to die faster or slower I guess.

[Schxer]

I'll put it to you this way, if trying to match your opponent pound-for-pound isn't working so well, why not try something else? Gunboats, for instance, are *exceptionally* good at pulling opposing enemies apart, I've had moments where I'll harass 2 or 3 battlecruisers that will split off and chase me but can't rejoin the wider fight since I can just CD them if they disengage while dodging a lot of their fire. Kiting, as you correctly observe, is kind of just decidedly *not good* in the current meta, be it in duels or in fleets, so don't kite, find a way to fight upfront but on your own terms.

I'd direct you towards this fight between LN and outcasts as an example. A few gunboats and bombers (and I think one cruiser) took out a relatively equal sized force of cruisers and battlecruisers by remaining flexible with their targeting, but remaining relatively coordinated and not getting isolated, while picking on targets that isolated themselves. In your guys' case, this may end up taking the form of using bombers, gunboats and cruisers to punch above your weight when you're outnumbered.

Failing this, you could also honestly just reach out to your opponents to try and figure out more fair fights, It's not fun to get curbstomped again and again facing 1.5x your number.

Right so as you said, just bring smaller ships if you want to fight fleet battles against higher numbers as you just can't kite in the current meta. That's what I was trying to explain. The side at disadvantage receives even more nerfs so that even your skill can't slightly make up for it. Switch to smaller ships or kite and lose.

[Levenna]

Right so as you said, just bring smaller ships if you want to fight fleet battles against higher numbers as you just can't kite in the current meta. That's what I was trying to explain. The side at disadvantage receives even more nerfs so that even your skill can't slightly make up for it. Switch to smaller ships or kite and lose.

To be honest, I'd rather have this than last patch's meta though. Last patch I could have like 5 people shooting at me and I just wouldn't be touched because I would strafe in a box in engine kill and I'd take twenty minutes to die while vastly outnumbered. Like, that's not healthy, either. You have options against a larger force, you just gotta make use of them.

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[03.07.2024] LNS-Beast***: we can do this every day but you have to buy bigger stronger ships...and i'll help you