' Wrote:Now, when the group that has received the orders decides that they don't want to follow those orders, shooting up the official faction and then re-engaging isn't really considered the way to go with that.
So the FR2 orders may have been worthy of arguing about in role play and on the forums. When the non-official faction starts shooting up the official faction, then the offiicial faction is within their rights to ask for the FR5 - which is what happened here.
Accusations of "who punched first" aside, what if they didn't engage the official faction, or regularly shot at them? What if they simply said "Well we'll fight the war we feel we should be fighting" and went about their business? Is the Order| still in the right to FR5 them for following a canon-based objective just because the official faction made a truce? Do official factions 'care' about independents that much to use administrative rights to force hands? I'm thinking this is the core issue, beyond the rivalries and pride fighting going on.
The only reason thier reps where changed via faction right 5 was because of direct refusal to follow canon leadership of the order, and then firing on primary fleet vessels in cold blood, signifying that they have gone rogue. Because of this thier reps where changed to show that Order no longer consider them members of the faction, and thus will be shot on sight.
If TCG submitt to OHC, andaccpey thier actions, thier rep will probly be restored. If TCG left to continue thier war somewhere else and saught nuetrality then they might be forgiven. For now, the order are on a purge of traitors to thier cause cos that is what the TCG have presented themselves as, so we will see what route they go down from here.
The familly is always looking to grow, PM me for details and help us corrupt gallia one step at a time
' Wrote:...after being called out for trying to start a war between the order and liberty, which you had no right attempting in the first place.
I'm confused about this (actually, the whole situation is perplexing given I haven't been around so much lately) as that already exists in the canon Disco story and all.
This was all before shooting started...few minutes before...and Admin saying we got sanctioned for shooting...
how is that possible...???
Wizard, that wasn't a threat of destruction against you. That was an honest warning about the TCG. At that point the case for an FR5 was already being put together. We were warning you to leave the TCG for your own good before the FR5 came into effect, not warning you to leave or be destroyed.
And at no point did any Order| ship open fire on you.
The shooting started when TCG|Karver opened fire on Order|Cpl.Troy.Goldman. Then it carried on after Karver planetdived then came back with the Waratah and started blowing up Order ships willy nilly, which he has been sanctioned for.
Quote:Dublin Miner: I am Gallic admiral earning money in Bretonia.
' Wrote:I'm confused about this (actually, the whole situation is perplexing given I haven't been around so much lately) as that already exists in the canon Disco story and all.
I don't think it's a war at this point, it's a "you stay on your side of the fence, we do the same"
I think the war thing is related to the warning of Admiral Hale about the order caps in Alaska and New York, and if I recall it was TCG related.
I suppose the principle concern raised by people not personally involved in this involves the ordering of ships to not do something that is, at the surface, part of the faction's canon.
The Order, enemies: Liberty Navy. Simply put, then you can bash on each other as much as you want.
If the official faction in question seeks to establish a particular tactical or strategic approach to the fighting of that war, they can. That includes things like temporarily seeking detente in the face of escalation, making first steps towards diplomatic manouveres, or possibly determining how resources are to be utilised in the prosecution of that war. If, for example, the KNF ordered non faction KNF ID'd ships to temporarily cease bombardment of Planet Leeds in the face of reprisals by the Bretonians, then it would be reasonable to assume that such an order served the greater good of the KNF faction in its entirety (faction and independent). This would be different if said group were ordered to not attack an enemy ever, or if the official faction was ordering someone to not do something that they allowed themselves to do.
A group cannot be FR5'd for following a faction's canon roleplay in the face of orders to the contrary. Shooting members of the official faction for their attempts to assert some sort of authority or direction in the fighting of a war is a different matter entirely.
I'm sure much of this could have been elaborated when the reputation adjustment report was posted. The case put by the official faction was well supported. The hope is that a roleplaying response be developed. I will remind my fellow Admins that we need to be more mindful of the community's need to be informed as much as possible about changes in gameplay like this.
The Admin team is aware of the rules, and of the need to avoid becoming embroiled in matters that are outside ensuring the smooth running of the server.
The number of rebellions in the Omicrons is something that perhaps the development team can address.
Zelot, I hope this explains my reasoning at least in supporting this decision (after the fact). However, I will add one thing. We make decisions on information provided by players. Often, that information may be incomplete. No decision made is ever final. All players should note that if evidence comes to light that this was the exercise of power for its own sake or to attempt to resolve personal differences (as opposed to differing perspectives on how to play a particular faction), the decision will be examined and, if necessary, reversed.
' Wrote:Wizard, that wasn't a threat of destruction against you. That was an honest warning about the TCG. At that point the case for an FR5 was already being put together. We were warning you to leave the TCG for your own good before the FR5 came into effect, not warning you to leave or be destroyed.
Exactly my point here...we are sanctioned for firing on Order| but everyone can see that i was warned to
leave TCG tag before shooting started and that FR5 is arranged before that...!!!!exactly my point dude...!!!
And don't get me wrong here,we are all perfectly fine with this,our RP was never meant to be regular Order RP
(read our story) and this is excellent chance to do just that...we evan wanted to ask Admins to make us white
with Order but this is ok to...only problem is that it's a bull**** story...this are lies.
The fact that the TCGs RP was so different from the Orders is what was causing the problems. You bringing the LN situation to a head when we would prefer to keep it in a state of cold war is what started the FR5 proceedings. The killing of Order agents and direct disobeying of oders from Osbourne was what put the final nail in the coffin so to speak.
In relation to the question of Navy and Order hostilities, I have this to say...
The Order are not in a great position. They are fighting against the Nomads and at the same time are trying to hold of the Bounty Hunters Guild. The reason we have tried our hardest to keep relation with Liberty from becoming open war is because we can't handle it. They are not meant to be the enemy. They are only hostile because of circumstances beyond either factions control and so we try to keep relations with them below boiling point. We even cooperated on occasion.
The TCG (and Order indies, the TCG aren't solely to blame) going into Alaska to hunt down that battlecruiser (who was also very much in the wrong) brought a lot of Navy ships to Minor looking for revenge. Waratahs threats of "we'll gank the navy 10 to 1" certainly did not help the situation and it was that more than the act of violating Alaska that started off the FR5 proceedings. Add to that the childish name calling that came out of the TCG in the aftermath of that incident followed by the blatant ignoring of OHCs orders to stay out of Alaska and eventually the violence perpetrated by Waratah and you have a very solid case for invoking FR5 in my opinion.
Quote:Dublin Miner: I am Gallic admiral earning money in Bretonia.
Zelot pointed to a rather annoying habit that the Admin team is trying to shake off, which is our continuing tendency to not make our posts as informative as they could be. Our role should be to inform the community as much as possible. We are not the inner circle.
The report made by Admins did not elaborate on the justification for implementing the FR5. It should have, so as to allow other players understand under which circumstances such an action could occur.
Considering this thread has now acquired a flavour that indicates significant bad feeling and accusations (groundless so far) of all manner of things, I suspect its usefulness has come to an end.
Further off-topic, inflammatory or posts that give me migraine will be invisibled.
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