I can't see what the fuss is about. Much of this stuff has already been determined.
You have to be faction leader or second-in-command to order fellow faction members (ie with the same ID). You can't do it on an alternative character for the simple reason that it is unimaginative, reduces character issues to player ones and is not how that right was intended. Also, with shared accounts, anyone can claim to be faction leader.
If a faction claims to represent the NPC faction, they have to follow lore. If they depart from it, they aren't that npc faction and are quite possibly using the wrong ID. Also, factions that don't behave as such face losing their faction rights and/or official status.
' Wrote:i took agmens example, cause he pointed out the correlation between player and character - i have no idea if he acts CiO on a low rank as well as on the faction leader.
That's why I wrote about the correlation. Normally as a character I'm perfectly fine with whatever is going on - if I'm in a fighter, while someone else in our fleet is in a Mako, we let the big ship have the chain of command. My actual character, Max DeVirgo, doesn't get out into space very often. The Guildhall doesn't leave 56 or 15, and that tends to be 'his' ship.
Really though the only time we've had an issue about orders in the BHG|, all the parties involved knew darned well that I was flying a certain ship. And those situations that we run into in the Omicrons normally aren't immediate ones, not like you find in house space with the regular navies. (Quit ganking him - move off now, that's an order.)
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
faction lore and to adhere to is really quite simple.
each faction plays a game - and the wonders of freelancer is that each game shares a common denominator.
but still - each faction ( lore ) has rules to adhere to. - so when the rules say "don t touch the ball with your hands, but only with your feet" - you do not touch it with your hands.
it can be damn fun to just grab the ball with your hands and run off - but like in real life... the fun is rather one sided - and can ruin the game.
factions are no referees though - but they are the ones that interpret the rules ( the lore again ) - they are the ones on the field. they are the ones that don t need to be picked for a team, cause they already are a team.
like in real life though - the casual player might know the rules better than the one in the team. - and even professional team players make mistakes - or play unfair. ( really, there is no difference between faction players and non-faction players when it comes to "when" and "how" they respect the rules )
however - the RL example can go on. - when you run across the field - having fun, - but the team decides that you totally ruin the game.... - they beat you up. - if you are more then them - or stronger then them... they call the "big" guys and remove you from the playing field.
sometimes - that is justified, sometimes it is not - who knows.
in any way...
if i want to have fun - and i either believe that "factions" cannot interpret the lore correctly... or i want to go further than the factions - cause i firmly believe that the lore allows it....
... it is common etiquette to TALK to the ppl already on the playing field. - transparency and communication - ... so often failed by so many players ( factionized and unfactionized )
when it comes to "new" players though..... it is the NEW players job to initiate communications ( and not demands ) - that is what social competence is about.
' Wrote:Official factions wit dev team dictates npc factions roleplay. And you must abide it if you have the current id.
Official factions are let to make agreements with neutral factions as long as it makes sense. Or to go from neutral to hostile. Mollies and outcasts are not allies in any form.
I don't know from what are you making this up, maybe that's becosue of molly leader incompetence, but they can't tell you do that. And if they do, you can disobey them. Any FR5'ing you might turn agianst themselves. Becouse official factions can't tell other players to stop fallowing factions lore.
Making stuff up agian.
CONSPIR[A]SY oh noez
*rolls eyes* You're obviously from one of these egotistical factions am I right? Maybe even one of their leaders that gets his jollies ordering non-members around?
No Mollies and Outcast are not allies. Guess what Einstein, neither are BAF and Outcast.
As for your comment about me "making things up." Try finding a valid argument.
' Wrote:Official Faction Rights are kinda lame.
If someone tries to order you around cause they're official, laugh and ignore them. But if they're acting in roleplay, and saying they're gonna shoot you if you don't listen to them, then you better well be expecting roleplaying concequences if you take a step out of line.
Don't come in here crying to mommy because someone roleplayed their character in-game. That's even more lame than Faction Rights, imo.
It's a roleplaying server, every action has a consequence. Stop always thinking rules rules rules and think about something logically for once.
The Molly's made a peace treaty with the BMM. Now, granted that only applies to the Molly Republic and not Molly's as a whole, in order to keep on peaceful terms with the BMM, the Molly's are going to do everything to protect that agreement.
You know what that means? When another Molly goes and attacks a BMM, they're going to distance themselves from that Molly, and even try to kill him to protect their agreement.
Don't like it? Kill BMM where the Molly Republic can't see you. If they try to FR5 you for that, then call BS.
The Molly peace treaty with BMM has no bearing on MY role play. That's between MR and BMM. I have no part in it and could care less. Me having the same ID as MR makes no difference. So long as I follow vanilla Molly lore and keep within Rule 6.10, the MR can not do anything to me about it. If MR forces thinks I "must" abide by their rules and laws then I'm gonna put the MR tag on my name (whether I'm on the official membership roles or not) and I'd expect to receive the same privileges as a full member. That's what this amounts to. If MR tells me to help defend Arranmore against a BAF attack, then I'd be more inclined to be following their orders. But telling me to leave BMM alone is OORP and violates Rule 6.10.
If I'm following Molly lore and they tell me to go against that lore (by telling me to leave BMM alone) then the official faction is in violation of Rule 6.10. If they "attack" me in order to protect their official faction "role play" agreement with BMM then they are gonna get a rules violation report for directly violating Rule 6.10. Best they can do is let the BMM or BAF or both come blow me out of the sky while they sit and watch (offering me no aide). Other than that they do not have any power to force me to recognize their agreement with BMM. And the FR5 does NOT apply to those wearing the SAME ID as the official faction so long as I'm well within Rule 6.10.
' Wrote:If a faction claims to represent the NPC faction, they have to follow lore. If they depart from it, they aren't that npc faction and are quite possibly using the wrong ID. Also, factions that don't behave as such face losing their faction rights and/or official status.
A bit ago it was ruled, that a standing (apparently not opposed by the Lawrds of teh Lawr) agreement between Daumann and IMG - BOTH official factions representing their respective NPC counterparts entirely - was put in jeopardy due to the some folks going after RH corporate miners openly. Now IMG shunned those peeps and asked for a FR5 so that those guys would be out of IMG for good, but was refused because it was APPARENTLY lore, that IMG should start just blasting other miners outright.
I mean, back then I was like... "How short-sighted/stupid can the admin team possibly get?" - if they tell IMG| to blast miners, then we have RM on our asses. Oh wait, is it lore for RM to retaliate? Sure as hell felt like it.
In other words - How about make up your minds and either set faction can-dos and can't-dos in some neat post, thereby doing away with their diplomacy and saving some trouble.
Or knock it off with the Lawr already and intervene only if something gets REAL stupid like the Order conquering Connecticut, leaving diplomacy and consequences to RP and factions.
' Wrote:*rolls eyes* You're obviously from one of these egotistical factions am I right? Maybe even one of their leaders that gets his jollies ordering non-members around?
No Mollies and Outcast are not allies. Guess what Einstein, neither are BAF and Outcast.
As for your comment about me "making things up." Try finding a valid argument.
The one who claims something, needs to find arguments. not the opposite. From your post it was just "factions are bad, we don't need them" fallowed by spilling mud on specific faction players (yet, now it's obviuos at it's fullest). And ye nice attempt to descredit someone's opinion calling him someone. Even if you would be right, it has nothing to do with expressed viewpoint.
And. Yus I was one of the faction leaders. But was always avoiding to appear one in actuall game as an Elder or as Bucaneer of Black Sails. That was before I retired from it.
' Wrote:The one who claims something, needs to find arguments. not the opposite. From your post it was just "factions are bad, we don't need them" fallowed by spilling mud on specific faction players (yet, now it's obviuos at it's fullest). And ye nice attempt to descredit someone's opinion calling him someone. Even if you would be right, it has nothing to do with expressed viewpoint.
And. Yus I was one of the faction leaders. But was always avoiding to appear one in actuall game as an Elder or as Bucaneer of Black Sails. That was before I retired from it.
First, I NEVER said anything about factions being bad. Read for comprehension please. My only gripe is with regards to those factions that abuse their rights. Factions are perfectly fine. Please do not take me out of context.
Second, I never spilled any mud on a specific faction. I used examples I actually experienced. And YOU called me a liar. So don't get on me about "discrediting" someone. You're the one that slung mud at me by calling me a liar and "making stuff up."
Now please drop the personal attacks and keep to the subject.
A bit ago it was ruled, that a standing (apparently not opposed by the Lawrds of teh Lawr) agreement between Daumann and IMG - BOTH official factions representing their respective NPC counterparts entirely - was put in jeopardy due to the some folks going after RH corporate miners openly. Now IMG shunned those peeps and asked for a FR5 so that those guys would be out of IMG for good, but was refused because it was APPARENTLY lore, that IMG should start just blasting other miners outright.
I mean, back then I was like... "How short-sighted/stupid can the admin team possibly get?" - if they tell IMG| to blast miners, then we have RM on our asses. Oh wait, is it lore for RM to retaliate? Sure as hell felt like it.
In other words - How about make up your minds and either set faction can-dos and can't-dos in some neat post, thereby doing away with their diplomacy and saving some trouble.
Or knock it off with the Lawr already and intervene only if something gets REAL stupid like the Order conquering Connecticut, leaving diplomacy and consequences to RP and factions.
Or am I misinterpreting the whole thing?
Define something stupid. It's a relative term. I'm sure many people feel that shooting up Liberty in a Rheinland battleship is stupid. But the Houses are "at war", so what would you expect when people log on to play a spaceship shoot em up game.
There's no one intervening here. This thread came about because of players, not administrators.
Faction diplomacy is one thing. Player agreements are another - the latter often come about because of convenience, for players' selfish reasons, or to correct perceived imbalances in gameplay. If those agreements mean that a faction is veering away from the understood role of that faction, then the parties to the agreement no longer have the power to order non-faction members around.
Shaping faction roleplay is not simply a matter of faction leaders posting on the forums. If, for example, someone decides that bounty hunters no longer collect bounties in capital ships, that flies in the face of the infocards for one of those ships (The Thresher) The infocards then need to be re-written. In-game rumours and news reports would have to be added.
That is the responsibility that comes with the significant power given to factions by these rights - a power that extends to a few people within factions - the idea being, I suppose, that these people would contribute to the development of the mod to reflect the dynamics of the game.
Factions falling short of meeting that responsibility have to recognise that the player base is not going to accept being ordered to do something that any reasonable, casual player who doesn't check every forum post would assume is normal. One example that comes to mind is of BAF shooting Outcasts. At some level, there appears to be an "understanding" regarding these factions. But the Outcast npc's will still disrupt lanes in Bretonia and try to demand your cargo. So the casual player seeing a Outcast in Bretonia would (rightly to my way of thinking) assume they are up to no good. Imagine his surprise when he gets ordered around for doing just that by the official faction of the BAF. It's a source of pointless friction.
At any one time, the majority of players on the server will be in non-faction ships. Most of them probably aren't aware of the roleplay intricacies that govern relations between factions. Don't be surprised when they are surprised, and aggrieved, at an order to not do something they fully expect to be able to do.
Also, enough with the flaming and that's an order.
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