Hitting cruise to catch up an afterburnering pilot

[mjolnir]

Alright, let's say player X and player Y are fighting against player A and player B. If player Y cruises, and player B cruises to pursue, player B cannot come back and reengage player X later.

At least, that's my understanding of the rule.

That is true.. but it's a different situation.

EDIT: Actually I would say they can cruise and fire on Y but not on X until he hits cruise as well.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Baltar]

Tenacity, if they go 3-4k away then come back over and over again, screenshot it and report it for shieldrunning. However, a capship is supposed to be slower than a fighter, and using cruise to get around that is against the rules.

They only have to do this ONCE for it to be shield running ... don't have to do it over and over again.

The cruise rule is "during combat." Once you thrust to 3-4k away ... you have left the fight ... thus the fight is over ... unless the guy chasing you pursues you at which point it becomes a chase and no longer in a fight.

Yeah, if they keep going away then they are fleeing and you can pursue. Don't do that before ~5-6k though.

Shield running occurs when you leave gun and missile range (approx 3k or more away). And if you get that far away ... you have left the fight ... same as if you'd cruised, docked, entered a trade lane, jumped to another system ... you are done and must leave the system for 4 hours and not re-engage as you have fled the fight.

[Akumabito]

This is kind of the problem.. you say that I "left" you. I can as well say that I was shooting on the GC all the time (I never stopped firing on him) and you "left" the fight by not staying with us.

Then when I kill the GC and there is nobody around with 10k, how am I still in a fight?

Except you left the JG where the fight was to chase the CG, right? She said she had to disengage in system chat and took off.

When you were done with her I and the AFA had moved, but does that give you the right to cruise to our position when I wasn't in cruise, and was still engaged?

[Baltar]

I still think the rule needs to be changed. You should only be considered 'fleeing' if you dock with a base, use a jump hole/jump gate, or get more than 5000m from the enemy.

The only reason this zero-tolerance cruising rule was made in the first place is because people were using it to shield run or dock for repairs/ammunition, yet it completely cut out using cruise engines as a valid tactic in combat. They take several seconds to charge, they leave your weapons un-usable, there are already enough disadvantages applied by engaging/using cruise mode to make it limited in combat.

You are fleeing anytime you ... dee de dee ... attempt to flee ... regardless of HOW you try to get away, you are trying to get away. This includes all of the following (and other ways not mentioned):

1. Entering cruise to ESCAPE the fight
2. Docking on a planet or station
3. Entering a trade lane to ESCAPE the pursuer
4. Jumping to another system via jump hole or gate
5. Fighter thrusting away from capship (since you know the capship cannot catch you)
6. Shield running
7. F1'ing

Feel free to add to this list ... I'm sure everyone has seen other ways people have attempted to flee.

[Baltar]

So then in a three against one, you are saying one guy could hang back, then hit cruise when a person is afterburning away legally, even when others on his side are still in range?

Ok ... you wanna play the "what if" game. We can "what if" all day long. Keep in mind the rules are not meant to cover EVERY single "what if" you can come up with.

Lets try to stick to the basics shall we. Regardless of how many are chasing the guy ... if the guy running is thrusting away at a good click to avoid the fight ... he's running ... not the guy(s) that are chasing him ... period.

[Akumabito]

You are fleeing anytime you ... dee de dee ... attempt to flee ... regardless of HOW you try to get away, you are trying to get away. This includes all of the following (and other ways not mentioned):

1. Entering cruise to ESCAPE the fight
2. Docking on a planet or station
3. Entering a trade lane to ESCAPE the pursuer
4. Jumping to another system via jump hole or gate
5. Fighter thrusting away from capship (since you know the capship cannot catch you)
6. Shield running
7. F1'ing

Feel free to add to this list ... I'm sure everyone has seen other ways people have attempted to flee.

F1ing isn't fleeing, it's a separate type of offense. Fleeing is legal, F1ing isn't.

Shield running isn't fleeing, it should be handled separately as well, as there is no intent to flee.

Your list fails to adress part of the situation that brought up my question in the first place, and that's one fighter afterburning away from another. How far does the pursuer have to wait until he hits cruise if his afterburner dies (or he decides to stop afterburner and hit cruise how much of a lead does he have to give the other fighter before he hits cruise)?


Another thing is, I was still on afterburner when the pursuer hit cruise, e-killed, and shot at me. Is that illegal, and if so, where in the rules is that?

Really, these rules need to be clearer.

Ok ... you wanna play the "what if" game. We can "what if" all day long. Keep in mind the rules are not meant to cover EVERY single "what if" you can come up with.

Lets try to stick to the basics shall we. Regardless of how many are chasing the guy ... if the guy running is thrusting away at a good click to avoid the fight ... he's running ... not the guy(s) that are chasing him ... period.

It's not the basics that are the issue, it's the corner cases, so sticking with the basics does nothing.

A guy might be running, but at what distance is he officially fleeing, freeing up the purser to go into cruise when the fleer has not.

[mjolnir]

She said she was leaving after quite some time away from you...
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Anyway If I try to get what's the reason for the rule:

Not to get advantage in a fight

Now how did you get that distance from me? => By "disengaging" from the fight I had with the GC ( and you did move from the JG as you say), so I can say you "fled" the fight. In the same way as what Baltar calls "shield running", you got out of my weapons range while I was in a fight.

If you turn it around I was "shield running" from you, getting out of your weapon range.

So we both got distance from each other in the fight , distance so big that I would say we were not in a fight any longer => I thought it was ok to cruise to "initiate a fight" with you again.

This way the fight got split and separated into two. I finished mine.. why should I be at a disadvantage (that you gained by "leaving" my fight?


// I need to leave now sorry.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[sovereign]

Oh god, what have we unleashed...

Okay, this isn't going anywhere productive. If you think it was bad, write a sanction report. This "discussion" has gone to "I'm right" "No I'm right" and is certainly getting more than a little hot, if we put a pie in this thread I would fear it would get singed. Please, take it to PMs...

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[Baltar]

F1ing isn't fleeing, it's a separate type of offense. Fleeing is legal, F1ing isn't. <-- I know this ... but it's still leaving the fight.

Shield running isn't fleeing, it should be handled separately as well, as there is no intent to flee. <-- Again ... I know this and its still leaving the fight.

Your list fails to adress part of the situation that brought up my question in the first place, and that's one fighter afterburning away from another. How far does the pursuer have to wait until he hits cruise if his afterburner dies (or he decides to stop afterburner and hit cruise how much of a lead does he have to give the other fighter before he hits cruise)? <-- Read my other posts ... I did address this ... if you get past gun and missile range (3k or more) you are fleeing the fight ... otherwise you'd be in the shield running category ... but either way ... you're outa the fight ... unless I can catch you.

Another thing is, I was still on afterburner when the pursuer hit cruise, e-killed, and shot at me. Is that illegal, and if so, where in the rules is that? <-- Only time this happens is if both are cruising and the pursuer kills engines and launches CDs or opens fire ... which is legal since both are cruising.

Really, these rules need to be clearer. <-- Totally agreed ... but then there wasn't an issue with this until the newest update to the mod adjusted speeds of various ships. When we had all ships thrusting at the same speed ... never an issue.

It's not the basics that are the issue, it's the corner cases, so sticking with the basics does nothing. <-- That's why we have Admins. They are the tie breakers and the one's paid the big bucks to judge each incident on a "case by case" basis. Let the Admins decide the "corner cases."

A guy might be running, but at what distance is he officially fleeing, freeing up the purser to go into cruise when the fleer has not. <-- Nothing official written down ... the 4 hour re-engagement rule was added only a few months ago. There used to be no specific cool down period after an engagement. But I propose once the guy thrusting away gets 3k or more away ... he's fleeing.

She said she was leaving after quite some time away from you...
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Anyway If I try to get what's the reason for the rule:

Not to get advantage in a fight

Now how did you get that distance from me? => By "disengaging" from the fight I had with the GC ( and you did move from the JG as you say), so I can say you "fled" the fight. In the same way as what Baltar calls "shield running", you got out of my weapons range while I was in a fight.

If you turn it around I was "shield running" from you, getting out of your weapon range.

So we both got distance from each other in the fight , distance so big that I would say we were not in a fight any longer => I though it was ok to cruise to "initiate a fight" with you again.

This way the fight go split and separated into two. I finished mine.. why should I be at a disadvantage (that you gained by "leaving" my fight?

Thank you Mjolnir ... wouldn't you say that thrusting away (in a faster ship) is gaining an advantage in a fight? Since he is thrusting beyond your guns ... if he returns he's shield running. And we all know that shield running means you are out and gotta leave and not re-engage for 4 hours.

[Akumabito]

She said she was leaving after quite some time away from you...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway If I try to get what's the reason for the rule:

Not to get advantage in a fight

Now how did you get that distance from me? => By "disengaging" from the fight I had with the GC ( and you did move from the JG as you say), so I can say you "fled" the fight. In the same way as what Baltar calls "shield running", you got out of my weapons range while I was in a fight.

If you turn it around I was "shield running" from you, getting out of your weapon range.

So we both got distance from each other in the fight , distance so big that I would say we were not in a fight any longer => I thought it was ok to cruise to "initiate a fight" with you again.

This way the fight got split and separated into two. I finished mine.. why should I be at a disadvantage (that you gained by "leaving" my fight?

The issue is this, it is against the rules, as I understand them, to use cruise to catch up after you have engaged then gotten seperated.

Your part of the fight went one way, mine went another, I didn't use cruise, I used afterburners to separate myself from being outnumbered to being one on one. That was tactical on my part and you had a choice as to which way to go, after the CG or after me. You could have stayed on me with the AFA, that was your choice.

You want to negate that rule against cruise to catch up, that's fine, but shouldn't the rules be changed to allow it before you start doing it? And shouldn't that rule change be made clear, because I don't hit cruise in a fight unless I am fleeing, although in big fights there have been plenty of times where I wanted to to reengage a part of a fight that got separated, as I am sure most people on this server have been tempted as well.