Discovery 4.91 Patch 12 Balance Changes [12/6/2019]

[Ki'Shar]

Battleships



Tokugawa

- The forward-firing, central heavy slot on the bottom of the ship has been moved to only fire rearward and to the sides.

The Tokugawa is very well-shaped, and with four forward firing heavies it was very adept at chasing down other capital ships and receiving little damage in return.

I dont think this was a wise change, taking away massive damage from a ship because it has a good profile does not make sense to me, might as well take the Osiris and remove one of the forward firing heavies and making it only fire to the rear because it has a good shape. The Tokugawa like all heavies are charging battleships that never run away from their opponents. The only other heavy cap that has 3 firing forward to my knowledge is the bismark and that does not make sense either. Removing a heavy (I know its not removed but taking away its ability to fire forward pretty much is) is not a good solution. Much like the Liberty Assault carrier the strafe speed of these ships should be adjusted. I would love to be apart of Cap Balance so people on this team can get another opinion from a member of this community who loves caps.

I mean lol... Bismarck is quite decent even with 3 heavies firing forward, you just have to turn around slightly. And yes I know what I am talking about as basically nobody could defeat me in Conn and I had just 3 heavies and CAU6. I am not even a cap player lol

being good in pvp does not mean you know cap balance, come fight me since your so good.

Re-read my post again, please. I said I am not a cap player, I didn't say I am good. I am just saying that Bismarck is quite decent in hands of somebody who doesn't even fly caps, so giving it one more heavy turret firing forward would make it a bit overpowered, wouldn't it? And go away with "come 1v1" argument somewhere, we are not in kindergarten. Unless you want to sponsor a Bismarck with CAU6 for me, because I am not going to do something so boring like trading just to buy Bismarck for one Pew, because I am not even going to fly with it. A lot of my precious time for one pew in conn with cap whore.

[Lythrilux]

its the crosshair being on its 2d nose making it cancer to hit

like the odin, rapier, lynx, stellion, scraper and lhotse

AFAIK the Falchion doesn't have a proper shield bubble.

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[Thunderer]

The Tokugawa is too good against smaller caps because of its thin front profile. As replacing Vanilla ship models is undesirable (and rescaling, after having learned on some mistakes), removing a heavy slot should nerf it a bit. However, the ship was underpeforming against Bismarcks due to its much lower armour, making it unsuitable for charging, and due to the low number of heavy and medium slots that could fire backwards. Now the Tokugawa can fire the equal number of heavy turrets backwards as the Bismarck can forward. It can fire less prims, yes, but the Bismarck is a larger ship and easier to hit. I think the Liberty carrier should receive the same treatment.

In short, rain the mortars, chaps!

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[Kazinsal]

the problem with the falchion wasnt its armor or bot count, its the crosshair being on its 2d nose making it cancer to hit

the change did nothing to it lul

Okay snark aside this is the kind of feedback that makes it a lot easier to investigate why a balance thing is A Bad Problem. My understanding based on this post is that the lead indicator is too far forward, causing the bulk of the ship's hull to be to outside of the impact area. If that sounds right, then please observe the following:



The red cross is the current lead indicator placement. The blue cross is one that would be more fairly distributed taking into account where the "core" of the ship's hittable parts are -- the wings and the rear half of the hull.

Now, you all know I am not a very good snub pilot, so I'm not just going to say "yeah looks good on paper let's throw it in". So, I'll ask here: does this crude diagram look like a solid explanation of where the problem with the Falchion is and what would be an adequate fix for it?

AFAIK the Falchion doesn't have a proper shield bubble.

It has a shield bubble, we confirmed that the other day in-game and I've confirmed it just now by taking a dump of the hitbox data.

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Retired, permanently.

[-Rax-]

the problem with the falchion wasnt its armor or bot count, its the crosshair being on its 2d nose making it cancer to hit

the change did nothing to it lul

Okay snark aside this is the kind of feedback that makes it a lot easier to investigate why a balance thing is A Bad Problem. My understanding based on this post is that the lead indicator is too far forward, causing the bulk of the ship's hull to be to outside of the impact area. If that sounds right, then please observe the following:



The red cross is the current lead indicator placement. The blue cross is one that would be more fairly distributed taking into account where the "core" of the ship's hittable parts are -- the wings and the rear half of the hull.

Now, you all know I am not a very good snub pilot, so I'm not just going to say "yeah looks good on paper let's throw it in". So, I'll ask here: does this crude diagram look like a solid explanation of where the problem with the Falchion is and what would be an adequate fix for it?

AFAIK the Falchion doesn't have a proper shield bubble.

It has a shield bubble, we confirmed that the other day in-game and I've confirmed it just now by taking a dump of the hitbox data.

You moved the cross to the actual center of the mass gravity on the ship. That's also placed rear the cockpit and it's more centered. It may cause a change and im pretty sure will be fairly better. Still though and due to the ship sizes will be tricky to hit from the front and back, but you did good in reducing the hull.

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[Oggdo Bogdo]

So, I'll ask here: does this crude diagram look like a solid explanation of where the problem with the Falchion is and what would be an adequate fix for it?

Except that all of this flows from the premise that it is indeed problematic, which cannot be diagnosed from an analysis within a vacuum and must have some sort of basis in the other ships that are available to fight it. The vast majority of mainstream ships on the server have this characteristic, so it is fallacious to say that it's problematic because of a characteristic like this. But I guess people are more protective of their faction assets like their rapiers and odins among other things.

reducing the hull

Also makes it much more susceptible to an instakill by a cannonball mine trap from any SHF. (27,255 damage vs 27,500 effective hull)

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[Kazinsal]

I'm more than willing to look at the lead indicators on other ships. All you need to do is ask, preferably nicely.

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Retired, permanently.

[Egon Bigmemes]

I think the Liberty carrier should receive the same treatment.

Force one heavy to always be backwards? What'd be the point in having a heavy alternative with 3 forward heavies when you can just go LibDread and also have 3 forward heavies? Because it can tank a handful more novas?

[Lythrilux]

Just upscale the Falchion it's an easy job, and it'll fix the issues.

It has a shield bubble, we confirmed that the other day in-game and I've confirmed it just now by taking a dump of the hitbox data.

It's so tight it practically clings to the ship's hull, which is already small. It's non standard I think.

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[Oggdo Bogdo]

I'm more than willing to look at the lead indicators on other ships. All you need to do is ask, preferably nicely.

No, all the ships I listed are basically fine balance-wise, or if they do have problems, its elsewhere. I'm trying to tell you that the Falchion is close to the mode level of effectiveness for VHFs, and that it is unfair to lower its power level because of people making balance judgements while flying awful ships (cough, mostly Sabre) against it in impractical scenarios (i.e. guns-only fights) to test balance in Connecticut. If I were to change anything, I would be looking at buffing some of the underwhelming ships rather than touching ships that are fine.

The point is that this "issue" with the lead indicator is a very common characteristic and not a symptom of imbalance. At the very most, it affects duelling ability marginally (the size of the shield bubble is far more important in a full fight with ammo and reloads) as it is irrelevant in chasing scenarios in group fights. However, nerfing it by lowering armor and nanos/shield batteries affects it in all scenarios. As will upscaling the ship.

Edit: Please don't take offense at my words, I'm not upset with you or anyone, I just come off as a blunt most of the time. xd

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