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Ipuvaepe · 06-14-2012, 07:27 AM,

' Wrote:So shut the hell up and say something useful.

And sure, what ever.

I'll just nod and agree....

With a smile even.

Your hypocrisy is outstanding...

EDIT: Posting here is bad for my health, so not posting or reading below this

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' Wrote:Also ignore Snak3. Forever.

Daedric · (This post was last modified: 06-14-2012, 07:35 AM by Daedric.)

Widow - do try to read. As a mod - I'd expect you to do so.

Quote:Try and disband LR- on your own decision and see how far that goes. Tell you what, I'll even avoid putting a green post while the drama is happening. No really give it a go. I'll start a pool on how long it will take for someone to replace you and keep LR- running if you pull that one.

That's Prowler. Not in admin green, but I'd bet it has that weight.

A faction doesn't need shared ships nor credits. A faction is perfectly capable of running on its members using their ships and such. You kick out all your members and try to disband and those members voice their opposition to what you're doing and I believe that the admins will side with them over you. At least, that is what it seems like Prowler is saying.

No one is saying you have a desire. We're saying you do not have the ability. Tell your man friend he needs to knock a few back and calm the hell down. His attitude is part of the reason he has the reputation he has. No one said a thing about him doing it. He took it that way and went off in a rage fit.

Not to mention his utterly lack of being respectful to other members of this community.

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~~Snak6~~ · (This post was last modified: 06-14-2012, 07:37 AM by Snak6.)

' Wrote:As Prowler said. Good luck doing that. You kick every member out and try to disband it (at least officials) and the membership speaks up. You'll find that they get the faction and you get the door.

As has been pointed out. Faction leaders have acted as you've described in the past. The result wasn't pretty for them.

What membership? Kicked one? They wouldn't be part of faction anymore.
What you described was probably done without proper reason, but that doesn't change the fact that while leaders take all responsibility and biggest effort, they are just scapegoats.
And when the time comes, they are actually nobody in terms of this topic.
It is his decision, but it must be approved by memberbase and admins?
Who is approving his job every step he takes, from sending money to greedy governments to be able to have few more routes, paying money for running bounty board?

How many members actually invested their time and pixel money into faction running?
Minority.

I do not approve dictatorship, but this disbalance is disturbing my mind.
On one hand, faction is work of many. On the other, the position of leader is just theoretical then.

Edit. Respect goes both ways.

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Dab · (This post was last modified: 06-14-2012, 07:38 AM by Dab.)

' Wrote:It would be nice to know the reason why my post was removed. It would go long way towards knowing what rule have I exactly broken.

Since some people are unable to follow forum rule 4 and get away with it, I would like to know the secrets of avoiding the all seeing eye of admin or mod.

"Stay on Topic or gtfo" does not a post make. Especially when the preceding posts were on topic, and primarily focused on responding to posts of your own.

The mods will handle when threads get off-topic, and we'll also handle telling people whether they do or do not need to get out of a thread.

To which brings us the current situation. As interesting as it is to see a couple people sling dirt and make asses of themselves, I don't think we really need it here. Alte, enough with the fishing posts. I'm getting quite tired of them, and have had to moderate posts of yours in three different threads in two days all for the same behavior; Making inflaming posts looking for someone to snap back and start and argument with you. I'm getting quite low on patience with you. Don't make that run out.

And to settle this impossibly petty argument, Arthur; No, Daedric was not off-topic.

Now, Altejago, you've lost your posting privileges here. If I see you in this thread in the next 24 hours, it won't end well for you.

Arthur, stop it with the petty complaints. Stop declaring every post that is contrary to your view off-topic, and stop making gtfo posts. They don't have to gtfo, and they haven't been off-topic.

Everyone, drop the LR/DSE conversation. Altejago made another stupid comment which succeeded in making another stupid argument.

Just a note, not related to the above;
@Daedric, no, Prowler's post does not carry the weight of an admin behind it. Color choice is chosen carefully by team members, and it was intentional that his post lacked Admin Green. By not having color, he is saying that his post is purely as that of a player and does not reflect the admin team, or him as an admin.

Widow · 06-14-2012, 07:36 AM,

Quote:Widow - do try to read. As a mod - I'd expect you to do so.

I have been reading, and I thought I'd put my two cents worth in - as a faction leader.

I was giving my opinion on things, Sorry. Didn't realise that wasn't allowed here, you know, in a discussion about the given question.

* Widow shrugs.

ProwlerPC · 06-14-2012, 08:03 AM,

Daedric's interpretation is spot on. My quote that geckon use to begin this thread was based on a thread I closed in which Geckon objected to a member stepping up to the plate to run a faction that a leader tried to shut down. This leader publicly admitted that it was against the wishes of the faction even. That happened awhile ago and Geckon rebumped it with his objection. This is why when you posted in this thread saying you own the faction's you lead I use the "try and shut it down" approach. Because that is precisely what this thread is born from. We won't come to a faction's rescue if Mr Leader decides to take "his" assets with him and leave the faction. We never refund banks and stuff for that as it's a faction's reponsibility to work out it's leaders and they got a bad one that time. Tuff. It's also up to the group to put up a new leader not the admins. But no individual has ownership. You say you got ships with lots of money, great. But I am not kidding when I say that there will not be a loophole that gives an individual such authority as to end an official faction against it's members wishes, so the word ownership is out the window no matter the hierarcy your group RP's out. Is being a leader a fun and powerful position? No, I did it for almost 4 yrs now, it's work for the benefit of the group at the request and support of that group. You think the logic of being able to kick people out works? Again that too is just a service you provide for the group to keep the group running. Part of the package. Eliminate all your members thinking yourself safe with that logic and you find it's interpretted as you leaving the faction.

tl:dr?

There won't be a logic twist or loop or special backdoor that will allow a Faction Leader on a rage quit to have the power to shut down a official faction and succeed so long as it's members wish for the faction to continue. Which is precisely what my quote Geckon used refers to from another thread it was pulled from.

Markus_Janus · (This post was last modified: 06-14-2012, 08:11 AM by Markus_Janus.)

Exactly my view as well.
A leader may own assets of a faction including ships, banks, forum accounts, forum hosting space and even media representing said faction, but the one thing that can not be taken is official status.
The rest can easily be replaced but official status is the hardest part to work for and deserves to be protected.

' Wrote:What membership? Kicked one? They wouldn't be part of faction anymore.
What you described was probably done without proper reason, but that doesn't change the fact that while leaders take all responsibility and biggest effort, they are just scapegoats.
And when the time comes, they are actually nobody in terms of this topic.
It is his decision, but it must be approved by memberbase and admins?
Who is approving his job every step he takes, from sending money to greedy governments to be able to have few more routes, paying money for running bounty board?

How many members actually invested their time and pixel money into faction running?
Minority.

I do not approve dictatorship, but this disbalance is disturbing my mind.
On one hand, faction is work of many. On the other, the position of leader is just theoretical then.

Edit. Respect goes both ways.

I think you have answered your own question there Geckon.
Being leader of an official faction is a thankless job, you have almost no real power and all the accountability.
But come on, if we didn't like it, we wouldn't do it.

Samura Omotai Zaibatsu.
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Daedric · (This post was last modified: 06-14-2012, 08:12 AM by Daedric.)

' Wrote:What membership? Kicked one? They wouldn't be part of faction anymore.
What you described was probably done without proper reason, but that doesn't change the fact that while leaders take all responsibility and biggest effort, they are just scapegoats.
And when the time comes, they are actually nobody in terms of this topic.
It is his decision, but it must be approved by memberbase and admins?
Who is approving his job every step he takes, from sending money to greedy governments to be able to have few more routes, paying money for running bounty board?

How many members actually invested their time and pixel money into faction running?
Minority.

I do not approve dictatorship, but this disbalance is disturbing my mind.
On one hand, faction is work of many. On the other, the position of leader is just theoretical then.

Edit. Respect goes both ways.

Yes, all of the members you kicked. Do you really think the admins are going to let you empty your faction out and then disband it in a rage? Or to troll those members? I doubt it. Prowler has issued a challenge to a FL to try it. Wonder why that is?

As for respect - do point out where anyone was disrespectful to Alte.

@ Widow

Didn't say you couldn't give an opinion. I'd just expect you to read and be informed when giving said opinion. Especially given your status.

@ Dab

Yes, I know Prowler didn't use admin green. I'd be willing to bet he didn't use green because he can't speak as an admin as the others haven't voiced their decision on the matter. I'd be further willing to bet that when put to a vote he will vote based on his opinion. The fact that many of the vocal admins have voiced their opinion on crazy raging ex faction leaders causing issues in the recent past leads me to believe that Prowler's opinion is likely shared by the admin team.

Oh look. Admin green. :laugh:

Anyways - I think I've irked a few people. That wasn't my intention. Alte & Widow. I wasn't saying you guys would or wanted to nor did I mean to disrespect either of you. If you feel I have, I am sorry; I didn't mean to do so.

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Dane Summers · 06-14-2012, 08:36 AM,

Guess I'll add my two cents in after having led two factions, and now starting up leading a third.

Factions need players, and, often, players need leaders. Some factions I've been a part of the, the player base did nothing unless a leader was there to boot them up the rear. SCRA has this problem off and on. Without Joey or Matt getting folks to log on and raid, nothing happens - at least, it was like that when I was a part of it.

With FP1, when it was decided to become a faction, instead of an effort - I crumpled under the weight of the stuff I was dealing with. Instead of leaning on people for help, I just shouldered it all, and got increasingly bitter. Eventually, in emo fits, I gave things up to other people, and didn't really comport myself well when I realized i wasn't wanted or needed anymore. Truth being, those folks did that for my benefit, and it took me a bit to realize what a great favor they had done me by releasing me from something I hated and was really killing my fun. And that person (its Tigger, lets not be veiled) is running the place better then I ever could. So, that turned out great.

With my attempt to build a new CR, I'm doing the opposite - I got a lot of great folks around me, and were all building it together. In a way, were all co-running it, and I'm encouraging the members I do have to add to the RP. I think at least some folks want to leave a mark on the factions they join, change them in some way for the better, add something to them - and I'm giving my members that opportunity. I could never call this effort my property - because it really does belong to all of us, as we make it.

If I decided "eh, screw it" and stopped, I don't know what would happen, but I would hope those people who are as enthusiastic as I am would continue it. Were all cooking up something great for this community, and I can tell ya, we can hardly wait to show it to you all.

So that's my two cents.

Widow · 06-14-2012, 09:24 AM,

' Wrote:Anyways - I think I've irked a few people. That wasn't my intention. Alte & Widow. I wasn't saying you guys would or wanted to nor did I mean to disrespect either of you. If you feel I have, I am sorry; I didn't mean to do so.

Its cool. I had been reading it, and I got a bit worked up over the way the conversation was headed. Thus in turn meaning I let emotion get involved and that made what I was trying to say come out completely wrong, sorry about that.. But, stepped away for a bit and now all is good. :)

Factions do need players, no doubt about that. I use to do something similar to you, Dane, and take on too many things with factions, and then get ragey and mad. But, without getting other people involved, its damn hard trying to run things. It would have to be a factions (At least majority vote of those whose opinions is counted in the faction) decision to close it down, otherwise the members would just say "Screw you, lets find a new leader" and they would carry on. The only thing is it depends on a whole variety of things.

Which is the point I was trying to make. It really does depend how it is structured, the way things are run, who runs it, what people in the group think of said person, and the time/effort/desire of the rest of the group to continue without the leader. If the group doesn't care, then the 'leader' would be able to shut it down and no one could care and less then if it was about, but if it was a group the faction saw it as worth fighting for then people will.

But, my question is, if the group is run with one sole person as the leader/owner, both in and out of RP, what is stopping them from shutting it down with or without the groups support?

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