[Theoretical] Official Faction Challenge System

[Binski]

Have you heard of deduction? Look at the current POB sieging and put pieces of the puzzle together - defenders' side won't magically be filled by Indies. Firstly, there is nothing in for them. Secondly, it is cumbersome and not interesting for the defenders as the attackers have more ways to cheese their way to victory. Thirdly, the population is small and spread around the time zones. Me personally, if some LR would declare a siege on, say, Norfolk - I won't show up for either of the sides for a very trivial reason - I simply don't play in liberty and it will not be interesting to me. And I know a bunch of people with similar preferences.

Also, RtS you provided as examples before are quite simplistic in terms of economy and devoid of diplomacy, mostly focused on tactical control rather than strategic planning. If this kind of system is implemented without political, diplomatic, financial, administrative , technological, etc etc reasoning and gameplay, then it defeats the To purpose of this system you are praising.

I've been to a bunch of sieges where indies made up most of the defenders. Sometimes it survived, sometimes it didn't. Maybe indies wont win every battle but there will be more than none. I cant believe you don't find actually defending stations from agressors intersting. Not even if in the form of supply? The bottom line on population is, we may be small still, but this may help turn it around, in combination with other things. We cut to address shrink, but it causes shrink. If we open up some room for people to move around, we'll get a happier player base all around I think.

I believe if Norfolk was attacked by the rogues, the people from every Liberty faction, BHG and freelancers and even corporate defenders would show up. If this were to be a regular thing, people would know they could help by joining the OF's that can fight back. At the very least, the OF can challenge to retake it, if the rogues succeded. I don't believe that even with a fleet of scyllas they could take norfolk. Even if the rogues did take the base down to 0 in 7 days, I doubt they'd be able to hold the base long. But that would generate an epic battle scenario and inrp the rogues would be launching terror attacks against navy bases or corporate bases. I'd say if rogues rp for allies like hackers to help, that would make sense to help their chances. So if you won't bother and dont care, why not let others simply proceed? If the rogues want to keep grinding and keep spending scidata, let them try again. But if they keep failing I doubt they'll waste 2500 units of scidata every 7-10 days on a hopeless siege. (I think the real threat in Liberty would be the Insurgency).

As to Rise of Nations, yeah its much simpler that Freelancer. But in Discovery we already have these things established, we just need some more reasons to appy them within a real system. This system creates a driving force that will allow for a major burst in activity, realistically for 2-3 years. I continue to wonder why players are opposed to this idea when they should be willing to try a lot more to attract and hold players.

[mm33dd]

I believe

And that is where all arguments die.
Instead of trying to change the game, why don't you play it as it is and try to make something of it.

[Gardarik]

I've been to a bunch of sieges where indies made up most of the defenders. Sometimes it survived, sometimes it didn't. Maybe indies wont win every battle but there will be more than none. I cant believe you don't find actually defending stations from agressors intersting. Not even if in the form of supply? The bottom line on population is, we may be small still, but this may help turn it around, in combination with other things. We cut to address shrink, but it causes shrink. If we open up some room for people to move around, we'll get a happier player base all around I think.

I believe if Norfolk was attacked by the rogues, the people from every Liberty faction, BHG and freelancers and even corporate defenders would show up. If this were to be a regular thing, people would know they could help by joining the OF's that can fight back. At the very least, the OF can challenge to retake it, if the rogues succeded. I don't believe that even with a fleet of scyllas they could take norfolk. Even if the rogues did take the base down to 0 in 7 days, I doubt they'd be able to hold the base long. But that would generate an epic battle scenario and inrp the rogues would be launching terror attacks against navy bases or corporate bases. I'd say if rogues rp for allies like hackers to help, that would make sense to help their chances. So if you won't bother and dont care, why not let others simply proceed? If the rogues want to keep grinding and keep spending scidata, let them try again. But if they keep failing I doubt they'll waste 2500 units of scidata every 7-10 days on a hopeless siege. (I think the real threat in Liberty would be the Insurgency).

As to Rise of Nations, yeah its much simpler that Freelancer. But in Discovery we already have these things established, we just need some more reasons to appy them within a real system. This system creates a driving force that will allow for a major burst in activity, realistically for 2-3 years. I continue to wonder why players are opposed to this idea when they should be willing to try a lot more to attract and hold players.

I don't find "even supplying" fun, I especially don't find supplying fun. I overall hate trading and haven't traded on disco for at least two years. Surely I won't spend my time supplying some random base. Ofc I do not represent the whole playerbase and to everyone his own, but I certainly know people like myself and your failing to "read" the playerbase is also not contributing to idea's successful pitch. Rogues can call sizeable OC playerbase to help and MNS Indies might be even more numerous than LNS. What we will have is a few minutes of fighting after which tedious hours of afk sieging ensue, demotivating further defences.

Rise of Nations was extremely simplistic even compared to civilisation series, which in terms is simplistic compared to Paradox strategies like stellar is. Disco, unlike you say, does not have economic, financial, political, administrative, and technological systems established. All of those are merely descriptive to facilitate space arcade shooter gameplay which disco is. Diplomacy exists on some form but without intricacies, because lore also puts constraints. IThis said, I doubt we need to transform a decent space arcade into a very mediocre at best strategy with pot mechanics.

And yeah, Med in the post above succinctly summed it up.

[Binski]

I don't find "even supplying" fun, I especially don't find supplying fun. I overall hate trading and haven't traded on disco for at least two years. Surely I won't spend my time supplying some random base. Ofc I do not represent the whole playerbase and to everyone his own, but I certainly know people like myself and your failing to "read" the playerbase is also not contributing to idea's successful pitch. Rogues can call sizeable OC playerbase to help and MNS Indies might be even more numerous than LNS. What we will have is a few minutes of fighting after which tedious hours of afk sieging ensue, demotivating further defences.

Rise of Nations was extremely simplistic even compared to civilisation series, which in terms is simplistic compared to Paradox strategies like stellar is. Disco, unlike you say, does not have economic, financial, political, administrative, and technological systems established. All of those are merely descriptive to facilitate space arcade shooter gameplay which disco is. Diplomacy exists on some form but without intricacies, because lore also puts constraints. IThis said, I doubt we need to transform a decent space arcade into a very mediocre at best strategy with pot mechanics.

And yeah, Med in the post above succinctly summed it up.

Yeah but thats what watered the place down. You see it as nothing but an arcade shooter. So if you don't trade/supply and see it as arcade, why bother play on a roleplay server? If you don't care why bother even get involved in this coversation? Just don't participate if you don't like it.

And RoN is way more complicated than Civilization. Its an RTS, not a turn based game. You at least must make use of military units with actual practical application to stay in the game.

[Gardarik]

Yeah but thats what watered the place down. You see it as nothing but an arcade shooter. So if you don't trade/supply and see it as arcade, why bother play on a roleplay server? If you don't care why bother even get involved in this coversation? Just don't participate if you don't like it.

And RoN is way more complicated than Civilization. Its an RTS, not a turn based game. You at least must make use of military units with actual practical application to stay in the game.

I actually play Discovery exactly for RP part because its arcade sim mechanics is old and not entertaining. Again your presumptions are very and very far from reality, devaluating your insight used as an argument. You are speaking about trading/supplying as if those were the cornerstone of RP, which they are not. I do not see your suggestions as contributing to healthy RP as well, because as much as I do like wargaming which I do iRL, not all RP on discovery is about war or geopolitics. I do care and this is exactly why I am vocal against the suggested changes and share my criticism.

P.S. In RoN all you have to do is upgrade units and send them fighting. A simplistic RTS design with some micromanagement. Still, there is only one way to win - eliminate. At least, Civilisation offers much more depth to gameplay thus complexity, because there are more ways to win, be it a cultural, scientific, or diplomatic. It all pales compared to EU4 or Stellaris, however. Still, the point is not which strategy is better but that freelancer is not any of those strategy games and won't be. There was a well-done Discovery Freelancer mod for Sins of Solar Empire for those who wished to control fleets and destroy bases. If you are one of those - find a buddy and host multiplayer lobby to satisfy your crave.

[Couden]

@Binski Stop Comparing RTS and Freelancer.

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[TheShooter36]

@Binski X4 Foundations sounds like a very good game for you, closer to what you want instead of Freelancer. Maybe give it a shot?

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[LuckyOne]

I really don't understand all the negativity here.

Yes, Binski's ideas are far-fetched. Yes, most of them wouldn't work. Yes, most of his arguments are not very convincing.

But there is no need to belittle a man who's just trying to make the game more interesting. You know, the game, the one thing that started it all. The one thing that has mesmerized anyone who played single-player and said: "wow this universe is pretty cool, I wonder if there are other people who like it".

The fact is, the game has been pretty stale compared to all the other stuff that has evolved around it. Yes the core gameplay is the casual, arcade space shooter. Did it stop being a casual, arcade space shooter when factions were conceived ? How about when caps were introduced? Or POBs?

The answer is, no, it's still a casual, arcade space shooter at its core. And it would still be, even if some of these changes were to be introduced. There would still be nothing preventing you from logging any time of the day, picking a ship, finding some friends and RPing to your heart's desire.

The fact is gameplay is the activity booster. The people who only log for RP-ing spend 80 percent of the time on the forums. And that is fine, as the game is limited in terms of how much effective RP it can foster. But everyone forgets that for every RP-er there are on average as much as 3 or 4 other people logged on.

The people who haul stuff, traders, POB owners, PVE mission addicts, Conn PVP specialists, or simply, explorers.

They are the silent majority that have been made irrelevant due to this mod's focus on the vocal, and arguably the most visible part of community, the RP crowd.

That said, the people who actually log to do stuff are the lifeblood of the game. Who are you going to RP with if nobody is logged on? Why do you even need the game or the server at that point ? Just cut the costs and shut it down.

Discovery has basically already started to introduce RTS-like elements into the gameplay. But they have always been optional, additional content to enjoy. I would even argue they are necessary because if this place was only down to the people who log for the casual arcade space shooter it would be as dead as other Freelancer servers.

So why can't we strive to introduce more of them, completely optional, of course, in an attempt to draw in more people from other communities ?

[Gardarik]

By all means, without any sarcasm I invite you to make suggestions. It was never one's intention to belittle Binski or anyone else in the first place. This attitude might seem so because it is far from the first time a wild Binski appears out of nowhere with an idea crazier than the previous one with a messiah-like attitude as if only he knows how to save the server and anyone else disagreeing with him is a close-minded bigot. I avoided even commenting most of his previous suggestions because discourse is cool and fosters development. But from time to time patience wears thin.

It would have been much easier if the changes suggested were more feasible or the person suggesting had knowledge in implementing these changes. There are numerous examples when the community what it suggested. A sci-data mining system is one of the recent examples. The author who applies too much scope and grandeur to his suggestion is partially to be blamed because it is too evidently not feasible, which combined with the described above messiah-like material presentation tactics attracts the reaction.

[Binski]

Yeah its fine. At this point, I'm starting to feel like there are so many here that want this place dead to suit themselves, I actually don't care anymore.

For the record, everything I have suggested has already been done in the game off and on for years, it just needs to be combined to make a system out of it. Nothing of it is 'far fetched', there are no engine changes. If that is so far fetched there's something wrong, and mostly with player attitudes. So while you see me as a combative or messiah wannabeish, I see you as a subconscious subverter. Its all just negative pressure to punch at it out of fear it might actually go somewhere. So yeah, keep it as is. See what happens. This place is running out of time to be plausibly revamped. And we have people here fighting to keep it locked acting like they are fighting some terrible disaster, that actually just gives everyone more options and more in depth actions to take. So yeah at this point I've seen so much ego here I decided to say screw it. I dont care if people get emanciated because someone else has good ideas they didnt and get irritated by us 'messiahs'.

I guess that makes a lot here the villians. Its obvious whats going on here. Oppnonents to this stuff practically seem programmed or brainwashed. Its freaky how bad I've had to spell it out and lay it all out. Stop thinking with your egos and think about the greater good for the mod. You see, the reason I'm like this is because this is not new to my life. I have often been willing to try things no one else is, and when I have succeeded I always did it against enormous pressure from jealous parties. A lesson for life folks, sometimes you really do have to keep marching forward despite the anchors of life.

Its fine, this has just been a test. One day after I'm a billionaire and have legal possession of the Freelancer franchise, I'll be coming back to put the system in place just to be a jerk to those who think I don't know what I'm talking about! Trust me, I can wait.

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The Further Exploits of Captain Antares (August 2015) │ (alt) JonasHudson
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