People's main problem with The Judges.

[SummerMcLovin]

I also had a fairly similar situation to Tonto here, having read the thread initially but not being active for a week or so to actually post before things spiralled somewhat. But onwards I go with the opinions...

I've already commented on my (one of only a few) in-game interaction in your request thread (here, for AD and others who couldn't find it) and it still doesn't appear to have changed much - very fleeting events which leave people confused as to what you do and/or are doing at the time.

I knew about the ex-admin thing but never really viewed it as a problem nor as indication that you were trying to take over the server or anything. Clearly you did think it was a problem though, hence the decision to hide it (although not too well, since a fair few knew, although I cannot remember how I found out). It might go some way in explaining what I've seen of some members.
As a couple have said here, Judges are a mixed bag of players as with any faction. Tonto is fairly reasonable and has been here, Alpha I've found pretty friendly. You have some of the... 'less articulated' guys would be a way of saying it (although there are of course those outside the faction too) who jump into threads in a rather hostile manner when faced with criticism. Then there is your leader, Logan, who has plenty of articulation and can write a good story, but in almost every post I've seen has shown an attitude that draws a lot of dislike from many. This attitude also includes what seems to be a sense of entitlement, and maybe that is from having been in a position of power elsewhere. Maybe when you have control over the rules somewhere else, you aren't used to some rules and other aspects here, and if people are against you then it must be ooRP grudges, bias, metagaming and everyone ganging up on you.

This would be fine as an RP point alone (e.g. whatever I may think of him, West does play the proud and obstinate KNF officer character very well), although with the accepted lore instead of the attempted retcons going on here it is rather strange.
A good example would be Logan's story about them travelling to meet some ancient universal figure (I enjoyed it when I read it a few months ago, echoing what Jamie said), which started with a fairly mundane mention of the Unioners. A band of greedy pirates who don't really care about anything than their own gains at the expense of the Rheinland government, and yet they execute their own pilots for attacking Judges, who are supposed to be the paragons of justice in the Sector and likely a perfect enemy for the Unioners.
All seems rather strange to me even with the suspension of belief when it comes to the Judges' proposed history. Then again, it might be the same problem that many of us don't know what you think you are as a group.

As has been stated before, we're looking for quality over quantity when it comes to RP. You've heard it many times that you need to interact fully with others more often than you have been. Coming from another position on another server again might have a hand in that.
However, I'll come from this at a different angle:
You have been taking in a lot of new players given your location and rather intensive initiation and training schedule system. Helping them out and doing some teaching would be good, but that largely depends on the quality of the lesson; a bad habit taught early can be hard to remove later on. Getting out and about with a helping hand is what they need, not being shut into a fairly insular faction that has tried to force itself into the lore in a non-fitting fashion, away from most other interactions. For a faction that spends so much time practising you really don't seem to be that great at fighting in general. While that isn't really a factor in weighing up your faction's merits and I don't think that it is perfectly analogous between teaching PvP and RP, a mentor with a more rounded Disco experience would be better for a newer player.

Maybe some of you could have done with that when you came here at first. I guess I just got lucky in finding a few decent people to learn from when starting out (exactly a year ago, coincidentally enough). Even if I did do a lot of work on my own initiative before joining and since then.

Black, there's no real need to post too many RAW forum links...

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Kingdom of Bretonia
Colonial Republic
Independent Miners Guild
Ex-Admin

[Black Widow]

Black, there's no real need to post too many RAW forum links...

Sorry

[monmarfori]

They mostly do nothing except camping at Newark, Battleship Mississippi and New Haven. But however most of them are unskilled so you can easily kill them.

[Ryummel]

I humbly request the Judge gentlemen to answer Summer's exposed concerns with utmost haste.

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[Judge Logan]

Tyler

Actually most of the Judges have trade ships and our overall assets are quite impressive. I am not sure that changing to a trading tag would be acceptable to the overall group, but I will present your idea. Thank you for it.

Blackwidow

Yes, the Judges started on the Raw server where we were server police and a few us, to include me, were server Admins. Raw died soon after Microsoft shut down the global server service for Freelancer some years back. Precisely three “Judges” transitioned to Disco that I am aware of, myself, Senior Judge Yohance, and Judge Viking. The other 19+ of our number are homegrown Disco Judges. We came to Disco eighteen months ago.

We “camped” on Newark for the simple reason that is has the highest traffic level and we were recruiting new members. Now, that has essentially stopped for about the last month as we have our “Plan” numbers. That took about seventeen months from inception.

Echo 7-7

The answer to your question is on the Wiki under search word “Judicial Order.” There is explained in some detail who we are where we come from. I hope you enjoy the reading. I also hope this does not seem paranoid or accusatory. I know I at times get excited, and I am sorry for the negative perceptions.

As to the addendum, the Judges do have a fleet of now 23 fighters or bombers. It may not equal the great fleets other server groups have, but we do train it regularly every Wed night. Yes we do also use TS. You are right that we should type more and I am trying to get that changed. Thanks for the input.

SMG Stirlin

Your points are well taken and some of them we are addressing internally. As to the rules statement, I am sorry but some of us really do know them forwards and backwards, and even trained on them once. When they are quoted (see earlier in this thread) word for word, I am still told “Sorry, I do not think it means what you read.” Given that level of comprehension, I frankly give up. There are no rules save those the Admins enforce. I now accept this and have told my people such. I am sorry if you found I was arrogant and egotistical. I never meant to be. What I am now, is very tired and several of my Judges have expressed the same to me. We will take appropriate actions on this also.

AsHill07

Curiously, I am told the stolen Judge tag was known to the Admins and they did…..nothing. No sanction for blatant theft of a protected tag, hacking into it to get the password, or using it to hunt down and murder a Judge in New London trying to tell the pilot his tag was illegal (Yes that was me, still trying to play by the rules.) Oddly in all the Disco pages of law, I could find no statement that this was illegal which may explain the lack of Admin activity. It was unethical, disingenuous and certainly self seeking, but not it seems illegal. I found the entire affair deeply depressing. This entry is not meant to be “Hate filled” or “Obnoxious”. For me it was a deep disappointment and a wakeup call that perhaps I needed.

Oh, yes I was Admin on the RAW server for many years. I am not sure that that explains to you, but it is still a fact. Thanks for the feedback.

SummerMcLovin

We never hid the fact that some Judges were in fact Admins from another defunct server. We simply never talked about it. I am sorry you think I am feeling some form of entitlement. I honestly do not.

In mention of the Unioners from the fiction piece “The Gods Hate Me”, in the tale the Judges are the Sirius police force, of a universe just as rowdy and factionist as this one. The group did not want to anger the Judges in the tale simply because if they really wanted to, the Judges could crush them totally and killing a cadet flight would be seen as ample reason. Therefore, they took extreme measures to show their innocence. Maybe a reach on my part, but I am not the best fiction writer.

We do in fact train our people as you said, and I do hope the lessons are not bad. This process echoes the similar process used for Raw server Judges and is some ten years old. Obviously server controls and such are not taught, but ethics is. We teach PvP, but also Honor and Justice. We even taught Law, but frankly I removed that from the agenda a while back since there was no practical point to it. We have invited people from day 1 to attend the training if they wish, and only 1 so wished for one lesson. Our training takes ten weeks and the pass rate for the Academy is about 35%.

Anyway, I hope I answered your point openly and honestly. I do thank you for the feedback.

Senior Judge Cutter

You attempted a brave thing here and it was more successful than you know. When you strip away the “Colorfulness” that some show, you get some very real and thoughtful ideas from some others. I thank you for this as we would not have had it otherwise. I have culled many concepts and ideas we can try to make things better for everyone from some very savvy players. That you did this on your own initiative makes it all the more impressive. Thank you Senior Judge. Very well done.

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[Tonto1911]

Senior Judge Cutter

You attempted a brave thing here and it was more successful than you know. When you strip away the “Colorfulness” that some show, you get some very real and thoughtful ideas from some others. I thank you for this as we would not have had it otherwise. I have culled many concepts and ideas we can try to make things better for everyone from some very savvy players. That you did this on your own initiative makes it all the more impressive. Thank you Senior Judge. Very well done.

Thank you sir, we dug this hole ourselves. I feel its time we stop digging.

[Echo 7-7]

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Echo 7-7

The answer to your question is on the Wiki under search word “Judicial Order.” There is explained in some detail who we are where we come from. I hope you enjoy the reading. I also hope this does not seem paranoid or accusatory. I know I at times get excited, and I am sorry for the negative perceptions.

As to the addendum, the Judges do have a fleet of now 23 fighters or bombers. It may not equal the great fleets other server groups have, but we do train it regularly every Wed night. Yes we do also use TS. You are right that we should type more and I am trying to get that changed. Thanks for the input.
...

It's the same content as on your faction page, so it doesn't really help. Aeternus Doleo raises some very good points that I would like to see your responses to (as in you, Logan, not you the Judges).
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...pid1335861

Judge Yohance appears to have brushed aside the key criticisms here. In short, it's entirely inappropriate to insert yourselves into Discovery lore just because there are blank spaces there. The Wiki does not contain all elements of lore that are considered canonical, simply because there is a lot of content to cover and the Wiki is a player-driven effort. In particular, Aeternus is referencing the Liberty Overview document that the original Freelancer developers used. I have a copy of it too but I'm not sure where to find it online.

We do in fact train our people as you said, and I do hope the lessons are not bad. This process echoes the similar process used for Raw server Judges and is some ten years old. Obviously server controls and such are not taught, but ethics is. We teach PvP, but also Honor and Justice. We even taught Law, but frankly I removed that from the agenda a while back since there was no practical point to it. We have invited people from day 1 to attend the training if they wish, and only 1 so wished for one lesson. Our training takes ten weeks and the pass rate for the Academy is about 35%.

You teach abstract concepts for a roleplay space simulator game? It sounds to me as if you've missed the forest for the trees. Also, from comments I've seen, you need to start looking outside your own faction for PvP coaches. Additionally, RP can't really be taught - it is learned through practice.

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There was a sig here, once.

[Huhuh]

We even taught Law, but frankly I removed that from the agenda a while back since there was no practical point to it.

As in house laws? They'd be the most important of all the things you 'taught'.

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[SothaSil]

Thank you sir, we dug this hole ourselves. I feel its time we stop digging.

I've been following this thread for a while when I realized something another problem you folks have. You have a problem to differentiate.
You act like you actually were those Judges you're roleplaying.
No.
You are not your Judge characters. Stop acting like you are them. And stop acting like every negative comment about the Judges (characters and faction) are personal insults against your person.

[RmJ]

I tired Rping with them awhile back. Would have been easier Rping with NPC's.

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