RE: The sanction of the Hess/Bret Combined Forces BattleGroup

[MB52]

Being in a group shows you are Allied. Always has, and always will. RP server and all. The sanction was because Hessien ID states they cannot ally themselves with a lawful.( they did) but since a BAF asked them into group the admins thought it unfair to punish the Hessiens only, so nailed all in group.
You all think it was bad sending them out to no-where. But seriously if those players used their heads, and logged on later, instead of right after sanction they would have lost nothing but time.
This was a slap on the wrist. They could have stripped every single ship of weapons/armour/thruster/shields and then stuck them out there.
Just think on that before you say they were unfair, and gave you all the chance to just log on later, and fly to freeport un-molested. Your fault you chose 10 minutes after sanction, not admins.

Also just to clarify. I was not involved in anyway before/during/after sanction. Just my thoughts on subject.

Actually.. it doesn't show you are allied. Using groups to tell this is simply metagaming.

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I’ll carry this flag
To the grave if I must
Because it’s flag that I love
And a flag that I trust

[Snak5]

Actually.. it doesn't show you are allied. Using groups to tell this is simply metagaming.

Metagaming is an act where knowledge, which you obtained by other means besides your character's interaction, and applying it to your roleplay is metagaming.

Filling sanctions has nothing to do with metagaming.
Also, some pictures or videos revealed that BAF| was coordinating attack, ordering Hessians as well. This is allying and is obvious to anyone who isn't biased.

ID tells you can't ally with something. Don't. You might choose the same target, but you don't coordinate your military actions in direct way.

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[Ursus]

Actually.. it doesn't show you are allied. Using groups to tell this is simply metagaming.

All sanctions are for activity that occurs oorp. The player breaks the rules, not the ship

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[Ursus]

As for those who lost respect of sails? May i ask if you had any?
Of all the factions iv'e been in, Black Sails is the one most subjected to OORP hate, reengagement, F1 outta piracy, lolwut sized ganks and foul alliances.... The whole faction is hated for ooRP reasons, in return, we hate none of you.... we love you all, especially traders.

Popping stranded ships for the purpose of taking their items might just be an example of why there's so much OORP negativity. Maybe.

I wasn't sanctioned, wasn't involved with it really, just an observation

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[Stygian]

Popping stranded ships for the purpose of taking their items might just be an example of why there's so much OORP negativity. Maybe.

I wasn't sanctioned, wasn't involved with it really, just an observation

The Corsairs lost something tangible and so did some of those that were sanctioned. I don't understand why anyone is crying foul over it.

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[Prysin]

Popping stranded ships for the purpose of taking their items might just be an example of why there's so much OORP negativity. Maybe.

I wasn't sanctioned, wasn't involved with it really, just an observation

That would have been an appropriate reply IF it werent for the fact they destroyed the property of the empire. At this point the entire empire would like to see bretonia brun to a crisp. Our characters wouldnt know how they got there, they only knew the enemy appears to be in our back yard and took action.

Yes i was among the sails there, i got nothing against the BAF or others involvee, peesonally. But i will not hesitate to make the best outta rhe situation when its there. My goal was to prevent them from just docking on fp11 and just troll around in gamma later as a form of spite-revenge... And all the hessians and BAF had very good reason to do just that given the sanction.

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[Vladimir]

Was totally worth it anyway.

But we all know what happens to countries that to openly support and work together with terrorist groups, right? Right!

Yeah, we do. Nothing. I'm looking at you, USA.

If I may ask the Hessians, here, openly. What was the motivation for going into Cambridge, other then "let's join in and pew a Sair base already under attack". How did the Hessians
a) Know about the attack
b) Know about the base. While Cambridge is listed on their ZoI, it's debatable they'd have scouts going 40K up midsystem.
c) Know that the BAF wouldn't summarily boot them out of Bretonian Core space as a non-Bretonian cap without permit (especially since, if this IRPly happened - Rheinland would have reason to embargo Bretonia -yet again-)

a) Easy answer: Mollies. Hard answer: sympathisers, secret leak, anything you can think of which is logical.
b) Easy answer: Mollies (and Reavers who tried to sell us info about sair base in cambridge, but got "data corrupted" at the end - we still knew it was there). Hard answer: sympathisers, secret leak, anything you can think of which is logical.
c) We didn't. It was a risk we took. FOR SOME REASON, probably called common sense, they didn't. That can also be called "RP". But really, do you think rheinland would embargo bretonia too? Who would they trade with, Gallia? And anyway, it was a risk on their side too, and they took it. And BIS already sent a message to bundestag about "no idea how hessians came and we booted them out afterwards". All is fine.

Also. Bear in mind that it was actually hard for us, because at the same time, RNC started assaulting Omega-11 trying to get to our base, and people were defending O-11 outnumbered and outgunned. Don't pretend it was just a yalala-let's-go-raid-because-we-have-nothing-to-lose.


Oh and, funny reaction from sair side. See rp, find rule-wise issue, report, have fun. Yeah, way to go. When [rm] broke rules attacking our miners without demand, we didn't report them because it made sense, but i guess it's too much to ask all people to be sensible.

I wonder how the great Bretonia allies, the Hessians, treat Bretonian commercial traffic.

RF (and probably RHA too, i didn't check much) doesn't touch it and ask indies not to touch them, either. Ever since that declaration of support. Sure we thought bretonia is going to backstab us, but we wouldn't want to backstab first.

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[Diomedes]

I think this whole debacle highlights a number of weaknesses in the current Disco rules, IDs and so on:

Lawful/Unlawful definitions are muddy at best. RHA, BAF are pretty clear yes. How about Council and GRN? Junkers? Outcasts inside Bretonia? How about a Freelancer friendly with LN, Blood Dragons and Corsairs? Maybe it's time to consider using other definitions in the rules than a far too simplistic un/lawful.

The allying clauses in the IDs tend to be awful, and get outdated faster than the IDs are redone. Just took a look at the Bret Privateer again with a critical eye, and it can only ally with Bret Lawfuls and GC. With Gallia the main enemy now, what about the Council or Brigands? (Apparently I need to post in the ID feedback, and I will after this).

On that note, are these allying clauses in the IDs even really needed? It is already a server rule (6.9) that players must follow the diplomacy of the NPC faction. So do we really need a line stating this over again in the ID that may later constrain some completely legitimate (but originally unseen) RP? Again, using a privateer as an example: why wouldn't a privateer cooperate with an RR hunting Gallics? RR are not wanted in Bretonia as far as I know, and it makes complete sense to join forces for more firepower and plain survival behind enemy lines.

Sanctions and enforcement that stem either from precedent that players who haven't been here for years won't know, or arbitrary judgement calls. Where is it stated that grouping = allying in the rules or the IDs? If grouping truly is the only issue in this sanction, should there not be a clear rule stating: To enter a group with is to directly ally with another player? Yes, my QCP was in a group with a Brigand the other day because a bunch of diplomacy RP was happening and he was touring me through Gallia to help us get oriented. It's a lot easier to chat constantly in formation flight. And if that is okay, then what about at that instant a couple RN ships attacked us both, now are we allied and in violation?

Sanctions that are just too creative. Creativity in sanctions is not a bad thing to me, but it does have to stay professional and fair. A free-for-all on unmounted equipment is not a good way to sanction for anything. If compensation for the parties hurt by the sanctioned action is the goal, just do so directly. It would save the OORP hate and ensure the players who were actually wronged benefited from the compensation, not just those who log a certain system at the right time.

Think that's everything that came to mind. It's late, any mistakes are my own.

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[JayDee Kasane]

There are always been situations when people thought that they can allied with some faction to pew common enemy. it is same situation that was with CCCP and Corsairs in Alpha, BHG and Hessians in Gamma, now its BAF and Hessians in Cambrige. People trying to use RP and such staff to attack common enemy, but ID overrides the rules, so if your Hessian ID doenst says: Can allied with BAF to pew Sairs - dont allie with BAF to pew Sairs. Simple. But this mstake done by many factions/players. no RP can be more important to ignore ID. Hessians could just go and shoot Sairs, yes. But they shouldnt be in one group with BAF, giv or recieve orders from them, send them repains/ammo and co-ordinate their actions. And Im sure BAF would not like Hessian Capship in Cambrige

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[Knjaz]

Where does it say in the RM ID that you can shoot IC regardless of cargo violations? It doesn't. You guys added that event based on forum RP. You set a precedent that we would be able to dynamically alter our allegiances based on roleplay.

So you won't mind, for example, Rheinland, out of desperation, selling still resource-rich Dresden to Gallia, to cover it's debts and restore it's economy, and provide Gallia with a foothold for a backdoor strike into Bretonia, that just allied itself with Hessians? At same time, establishing trade relations with Gallia, to cover losses from Bretonia's blockade.

The only thing that would inRL prevent that is if Gallics actually want Rheinland's alliance, or if they're overconfident in their forces.

Can you imagine the consequences of this for the House of Bretonia?

That was just an example of a simple "realpolitik" move.