' Wrote:Maybe this will go some ways to diversify the transports being used so that there is an advantage to using the smaller transports. Yes, 5Ks and other large transports are going to be at a bigger disadvantage, as it should be.
' Wrote:Maybe this will go some ways to diversify the transports being used so that there is an advantage to using the smaller transports. Yes, 5Ks and other large transports are going to be at a bigger disadvantage, as it should be.
If "bigger disadvantage" means 30 seconds of (very one-sided) fighting "interaction" and practically 0 % chance of survival, I have to disagree. I agree, though, that agile transports should do better than fat ones.
Fat ones should have a 25 - 33 % chance if they do not make mistakes (people invest between 500 mils and 1 bln into these shjips and they die in < 1 minute!).
Small ones should have a very decent chance, > 50 % if they don't make mistakes.
I strongly disagree that fighting survivability that is lower than 2 minutes is anywhere where a game should place any interaction duration.
' Wrote:Pretty much, Kamome or the Big Dragon? :unsure:
Or Behemoth, or BWT, or Bublebee, or Firefly, or Gallic Assault transport, or Geisha, or Mammoth, or Nag Porbot(really, we have a ship with that name? who named that and what were they smoking?), or Percheron, to name a few.
I think it is somewhat disappointing that the full-scale trial didn't last for longer.
There were quite a few added benefits with the former trial, such as now having the ability to shut foul-mouthed base-hugging traders and smugglers up (after stating demands you could lower the shields to less than 50% before such a person can manage to dock). It was quite refreshing, actually.
Other positive things might have surfaced too, had we given it a better shot. Perhaps next time when announcing a trial of something, put a definite deadline on it? That way no QQ can sway the original decision to run the trial, and there would be time to collect enough data to evaluate the effects of the trial properly. Sometimes when the door is left slightly open to QQ, it will get out of hand. IMO its better to just put the foot down and say "deal with it for 2 weeks, we'll take listen to what the community has discovered then and make a fair decision based on that".
But agreed that traders need a win-condition, but it shouldn't be a given. Perhaps it is fair the way it is now, but admins please dont be swayed as fast again. You shouldn't always have a chance to walk free in a solo 5k'er - had we run the full-scale trial for longer, traders would start to join forces, get escorts and so on. Things might be different if players had the time to settle down and try things out in a less QQ-intense atmosphere.
Off-topic-ish:
Really the "a transport only lasts 30 seconds vs. a cruiser in tests" is more of a Conneticut-thing - the "real" test would be to judge the survivability-rate for traders in transports using tactics (forming convoys and using escorts/scouts etc.). Official trading/mining factions have the benefit of numbers and coordination, which in many situations is the key to success. A lot of pirates/unlawfuls are un-organized and can be outsmarted/outbested by a small group of coordinated players.
I'm not saying that a lot of people aren't "trading smart", but it is far from the majority (because it takes time and costs credits, and thus affects the overall profit), and especially for corporate ID'd 5K'ers I would like to see more convoy/scout/escort stuff. It's important that the Admins don't cave in again, because the new rule changes promoted varied use of the transport classes, instead of the 5K'er always being the best choice for profit-maximizing, solo or not.
I'd like it more if it was like Eve, where the blockade-runners (small-ish, fast transports with cloaking devices) are the best choice for certain routes, and jump-freighters and conventional freighters are optimal for other routes.
In this context it is also quite interesting that large parts of the "trader-side" always ask for more guns and armor on their 4-5K transports as a solution to all balancing issues, when different and more innovative mechanics could be introduced instead to further the gameplay of the trading-minigame. I don't hear anyone asking if its possible for the devs to create a 2K transport with a reduced signature radius, or a medium transport with improved countermeasures of some sort. I'd like a game that was balanced so that some smaller ships on some risky routes are equally profitable as the 5K'er on "safe routes". If there was more diversity in the trading-minigame, I think more people would find it enjoyable, rather than just see it as a chore (prolonged by evil pirate players who must also be bad people in real life).
tl;dr: Don't go back to where we were, promote variety in trading through transport classes with individual benefits/drawbacks.
Damn it, give transports and freighters 30 mins instead of the 4 hours or nothing. This little amount of time won't really hurt anybody, and it will make effectively abusing the exemption impossible.
' Wrote:I notice that in this thread it says transports and freighters are exempt, but in the main rules thread it only says transports are exempt, so which is it? Cos that could cause a lot of arguments if its not cleared up.
That's my fault, I got sidetracked when I was updating the rule post with the new exemption. It's fixed now, reads as it does in the first post of this thread.
' Wrote:You shouldn't always have a chance to walk free in a solo 5k'er
You don't fly transports much, do you? The solo 5ker can be successfully pirated by nearly anything. It dies to anything that is bomber, Ptrans, GB, cruiser. A 5ker is meant to not last under fire for long and it does not. Not even high CAU Storks make it to the base if the enemy has half of an idea. Survival times are actually so low that I find it utterly unrealistic, not only against the cruisers but even against the common GB pirate scenario.
Quote: traders would start to join forces, get escorts and so on.
So 1 player on a pirate can wreck 1 player on a trader. Fine.
1 pirate player (with good equipment + skill) can wreck 2 players in traders. Fine.
But: Groups of traders (hard to organise, not always people there, etc) should be able to have a good chance of survival... they don't after the cruiser update. It does not matter whether your all Battletransport > CAU 6 convoy runs into a cruiser or your unarmored Stork... all die. Within seconds. I tried it to make sure I know what I am talking about.
Basic line: This game says: [inferior ship class] x3 / x4 beats [superior class].
Example: 3-4 bombers (should) beat a GB, 3 GBs should beat a Cruiser, etc.... it was stated by Admins that this is wished for to reward cooperative play.
A well managed convoy had a chance to win (by blue message; it is a f..... space shooter! If I outnumber him 4:1 I want to have a chance for a blue message!) :)
How about transports? I know because I fly convoys, battletransports, escorted, organised ones, teamspeak, experienced people.
4 BTs with > CAU 4 (+ 1 Snub) + good communication + no grave mistakes => can successfully beat a GB without ship loss. A GB pirate was the worst case scenario for Battle Transports.
Against Cruiser? Virtually unlimited amount of traders + reasonable amount of snubs (more than 2 you do not take on a convoy normally) will never be able to beat the odds. 50 seconds for each CAU 6 Battletransport to poof, CD ranges that can catch everything running, and guns/missiles that even destroy you at extreme ranges without cms and without enough agility to dodge. '
Now you guys yell: transports are not meant to fight!!!!
I say: It is a space shooter.
I want to shoot at things, even in my transport when I am forced to. I have every right to enjoy that part of the game and I demand that my fun in playing this game is taken into account as well. And I am a trader player. I want the chance to kill a pirate (any class including GB) if he is dumb, and at least have a chance to get to safety in ANY situation (cruiser win condition, as blue message is out of the question).
Doesn't have to be a 100 % chance of escaping even with perfect actions on the convoy part. Not even 50 %. But I want to have one. And making this happen is the principle of balancing, of fair play, of fun for every class of player.
Quote:Really the "a transport only lasts 30 seconds vs. a cruiser in tests" is more of a Conneticut-thing
No, it is a Stuttgart thing. All my data comes from real world scenarios. Mainly in Stuttgart. Thank you to his.mother and his extensive piracy in Omegas and Rheinland borderworlds.
Quote:traders in transports using tactics (forming convoys and using escorts/scouts etc.). Official trading/mining factions have the benefit of numbers and coordination, which in many situations is the key to success. A lot of pirates/unlawfuls are un-organized and can be outsmarted/outbested by a small group of coordinated players.
All types of pirates can be outsmarted and evaded. Best by logging off and waiting for him to log off. It's great fun <irony>. So if you want players on weak ships to try and get past the traps, you need to grant them a chance of survival in case the risk they take leaves them in the "I was caught" situation.
That chance is not given. GBs are still much too powerful against traders in solo piracy. And... let's not talk about cruisers. So... what happens is: You see a known pirate, you tell your mates: "Take a break, 15 minutes, check the online list...". That's the reaction of organised players when they find out that the odds are too bad to try to best them.
Quote: "trading smart", but it is far from the majority (because it takes time and costs credits, and thus affects the overall profit), and especially for corporate ID'd 5K'ers I would like to see more convoy/scout/escort stuff.
Escorts & scouts are not around. If you do not have people/friends/faction mates, you will almost be forced to go alone. Especially new players do not have the networks to rely on. And before you say: Join a faction... there are few that do what you want to see... it is IMG| and Bowex) that fly organised, high CAU, well protected runs.
Quote:In this context it is also quite interesting that large parts of the "trader-side" always ask for more guns and armor on their 4-5K transports as a solution to all balancing issues
Trader players ask for a decent chance to survive if they did everything the right way. That includes shields that can stand bombardement by a cruiser for at least a minute or two, so that you actually have the chance to do anything before you blow up. That is not too much to ask.
They also ask for CMs now, as missiles that you cannot dodge kill you at > 3 k range. 60 seconds of thrusting and evading gets you ~ 600 m from the cruiser. Fact: You can wreck a complete convoy in < 3 minutes if you can keep all of them cd-ed.
So, yes, trader players ask for a fair chance in this -game- because they want to have fun. And dying 100 % even in a battle transport that is worth a billion credits in less than a minute (I tested it, CAU 6 Shire) just yells: balancing needs to be done.
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