An interesting argument on semantics.
First off I will say I have no problem with Zoners interpreting that they will get the message, but then so will many others in the same way.
I guess it all comes down to how you interpret this.
Quote:To: The Sirius Houses of Kusari, Rheinland, Liberty and Bretonia and all Civilians there in.
Hmm so if the Coalition has any civilians that may operate within any of the houses at any time, like say a trading company that supplies them, they are addressed as well.
Same for the Colonial Republic which also has civilians who can operate in many houses.
Quote:The Zoners are a diverse group of individuals who, for various reasons, have decided to live in the wild and unregulated systems outside colonial control.
One minute Zoners claim to be outside the houses and the next they claim to be civilians within.
You can of course stick to the argument, and in a lot of ways I can agree with that, but so can many others and hence open to Zoners in that way, means open to many others.
We can go on twisting this all day long and it will remain an argument of semantics.
EDIT for post below:
I will just say that I may have been slightly to blame for the corporations when I posted that I was attending, I did make it clear I was representing the Kusari government as opposed to Samura but that was probably missed.
As to the Zoner issue, all of my personal concerns about that were brought up above, if they are to be included as civilians in that sentence, then almost everyone is.
About the number of Zoner reps, that is a purely InRP issue, I can understand that they are varied and want to represent themselves.
The concerns brought up by others was also an InRP response as they realised that one group would have nearly a third of all representatives while goups larger than double the size or even three times the size or more would be limited to one, even when some do indeed have concerns as varied as those of Zoners.
So yeah that seems to be part of the breakdown, but a part that was perfectly within RP to have.
Quote:To: The Sirius Houses of Kusari, Rheinland, Liberty and Bretonia and all Civilians there in.
That's the big mistake here. I initially assumed the invitation was solely to the governments of the four Houses, but then corporations jumped on the bandwagon, and it all snowballed rapidly from there.
I brought Ageira into it because it appeared that it might be worthwhile if all the other major corporations were coming too. However, a line really had to be drawn somewhere, and that line wasn't explicitly communicated to any of us. Well, actually, I guess you drew that line when you decided to deny CR and the Coalition's participation, but it would have been so much easier to make that clarification at the start, rather than half way through.
I have to say, though, maybe cut down on the number of Zoner representatives. Wouldn't one from each official faction have been enough, and each 'independent' freeport choosing which representative would be their voice?
"To: Those disastisfied with Orbital Spa and Cruise's diplomacy" yet you replied as OSC's employee. You accuse others of metagaming, yet do it yourself.
Hypocrisy.
That's sad that you are not admitting some mistakes by yourself.
Also, you said you are on behalf of players, who likes and want to play OSC (well something like that), while doing all by yourself as I see it.
I would recommend attempting to give the role of spokesman to one of those players. Maybe it will change relationships to a better ones. Who knows...
I'm not sure how it is semantics. The two words have completely different meanings.
' Wrote:First off I will say I have no problem with Zoners interpreting that they will get the message, but then so will many others in the same way.
I guess it all comes down to how you interpret this.
Hmm so if the Coalition has any civilians that may operate within any of the houses at any time, like say a trading company that supplies them, they are addressed as well.
Same for the Colonial Republic which also has civilians who can operate in many houses.
One minute Zoners claim to be outside the houses and the next they claim to be civilians within.
You can of course stick to the argument, and in a lot of ways I can agree with that, but so can many others and hence open to Zoners in that way, means open to many others.
We can go on twisting this all day long and it will remain an argument of semantics.
The key thing you are missing here, that I think you are over looking on purpose is that Zoners are civilians. It doesn't matter if we are inside our outside of the houses. At our core Zoners are civilians. The message is easily received by Zoners as they inhabit a planet within a house. Namely the one in Pennsylvania. You know, Erie. They also have a seat within Bretonia's legislation, unless that has changed. So yes, Zoners are civilians both inside and outside of the houses.
I'm not twisting anything and it isn't an argument of semantics. You clearly don't understand that civilian and citizen are two words with very different meanings.
I can be a civilian, but not a citizen. As I was when I vacationed in Germany.
I can be a citizen, but not a civilian. As I was when I was in the US Army.
I can be a citizen and a civilian. As I am right now.
By your logic, any message beamed to a Freeport is open game for all. While I don't think that everyone replying was meta-gaming as Skullz didn't make who it was directed at very clear, I do think people were meta-gaming when they took information from text that he clearly indicated was directed at one character. I honestly don't think some of it was intentional, but it was done nonetheless.
In this post Sirius Robotics using information from this post. Even though the information he used was clearly directed only to Richard Connors.
Breaking up an individual post in this manner as to avoid having to make multiple posts is common here on the forums, so please don't try to say it is confusing.
This post feed from Sirius Robotics post, but still used information from a post it shouldn't have had access to.
In this post Skullz addresses three people (two of which meta-gamed information for their previous post), speaking about the Colonials. At this point, he has acknowledged that they read a message not intended for them, yet didn't speak up. Kinda his fault on that.
In this post a player uses information from this post as well as knowing about the Colonial Republic's rejection (which could be attributed to the back and forth of unencrypted messages by the VE.
As I said, I don't feel this was intentional nor done with a negative connotation, but it does read of meta-gaming as we've seen in the past. They used information from stuff they shouldn't have been able to see. It is far from everyone though.
' Wrote:EDIT for post below:
I will just say that I may have been slightly to blame for the corporations when I posted that I was attending, I did make it clear I was representing the Kusari government as opposed to Samura but that was probably missed.
As to the Zoner issue, all of my personal concerns about that were brought up above, if they are to be included as civilians in that sentence, then almost everyone is.
About the number of Zoner reps, that is a purely InRP issue, I can understand that they are varied and want to represent themselves.
The concerns brought up by others was also an InRP response as they realised that one group would have nearly a third of all representatives while goups larger than double the size or even three times the size or more would be limited to one, even when some do indeed have concerns as varied as those of Zoners.
So yeah that seems to be part of the breakdown, but a part that was perfectly within RP to have.
I agree the manner in which he encrypted it and directed it to certain factions was confusing. However, just because you got a message via a third party (that would be how the CRs and SCRA would have gotten it) doesn't mean you've the ability to reply to said message. Again, not intentional meta gaming, but such actions have been frowned upon before.
As for the Zoner stuff that was in role play. It was very enjoyable. Kudos to you and Zelot for the banter.
Edit: @ Skullz - Calm down and don't do exactly what you complained others were doing.
@ Everyone else
Quit riding the guys butt for a freaking minute. You are not helping by jumping on him for each and every little mistake he makes. Its mean and immature. You're only causing him to become more annoyed and frustrated, thus probably making more little mistakes.
I think I'll go bring the Corsairs some food now. Good way to relax. Cheers.
Yes I did that, only on one occassion. And o Hypocrisy is life. If people wish to metagame with me, I'll do it with them. It's called being fair. Got a problem with fairness go jump of a cliff.
I can accept my own shortcomings, lol.
Your last point. I am running a group, however they are not as active as myself, nor has one asked myself or jumped at a chance of doing something for me on the forums. Untill I have on who is willing I am likely to be doing all talks of diplomacy with Kim.
Quote:Zoners aren't citizens of the houses (some could be though) but they are civilians.
Of the Houses?
Did I say of the Houses? No. I said Civilians there in. Which means if you are a civilian of whatever creed and you happen to be in a house at that time, you will recieve it.
Am gonna go against what my gut and brain is telling me now. (That means I am going by my heart.)
I seriously feel like there is many in this community that I have to use poor english for the to understand what I say. I have been using a good standard of english for a long time now. I have been regarded by many people I know personnally as a very good writer, especially for letters. Untill now I have never had any problem with anyone about how I use words in their delivery or intent. Which kinda leads be to a belive of that many in the game do not understand proper english at all.
I also denied the Reavers, CR and SCRA from attending for the following reasons:
Cr did not give me any information regarding their relations to any of the houses. Ie, Any trade bewteen them and the House Government or any of its corps, be that via a trade agreement or general trade.
Secondly that they seemed in roleplay, by another characters roleplay, that they openly support terrorism.
I did not accept SCRA as they commit terrorism on all militaries, police, intelligence forces and government facilities.
And I refused Reavers as they are based on greed and support certain undesirables.
All three of those was in keeping of what I had laid down. And others sought to disrespect that.
My response to one Sir Jack Fraser was only to say to him that as he is not part of the ruling party that he cannot address a Summit. And treated him as a back bencher. A Back Bencher cannot announce on a parties behalf that they will be attending. British law since Parliment came to power dissallow's a noble as well from becoming a party member. And that a Noble cannot announce nor attend a diplomatic summit or meeting. They can only attend royal duties and tours, which still cannot be announced by themselves. And also a Back Bencher cannot do anything public whilst they are a back bencher. A Prime Minister, or a assigned PM from the ruling party can only take part. Also if he is a Duke he is no longer a Sir. As a Sir is for those that are Knighted. A Duke is higher than a Knight, meaning their actual title and how they should be addressed is of Duke name name. Lastly calling a women a man is rude, especially when the name clearly implies a woman. I have never known any man called Kim except Chinese and Korean's, for which are not repersented in Freelancer. And also as when Parliment came to power over the Royal Familiy No Military Soldier can be a PM whilst in their active service. This was to prevent parliment from ever being able to field its own armies ever again. Nor was he on the BAF roster so he is not recognised as a actual repersentative of the BAF.
Quote:1. This is a role-play forum. Any out of character posts will be deleted without warning. Lines of out of character text will be snipped from role-play posts.
2. If a transmission is not directed at you, or it is made clear that you are not a party to the communication, don't post in it.
3. If a transmission is not directed at your characters, your characters should not know about it.
Communication posting rules. If you name a person, it is for their eyes only as per the rules. I do not have to say it is private or what have you. (What have you. Means any other related things, in the context of what followed before it.)
Those that I feel metagamed are the following; Zelot (Cr and SCRA, as well as pointing out relations that his character would not otherwise know of. aka, OSC with hogosha and Corsairs. To which their has been none with Hogosha and little with the Corsairs), David Mahone, Virulian Council account user, Bauer, Markus_Janus and Sirius Robotics.
Roleplay that I have seen that does not go with the set roleplay that is set for them are as I believe (The main ones worthy of noting): Sir Jack Fraser, (Explained as above. No Military personnel are allowed to be a member of parliment. No Noble is allowed to be a member of parliment. This is from the accounts during the English Civil war.) Queen Carina's roleplay of hostility when I showed no hostility or made no offense, Dab's own character, (It would seem that many people do not know how you become a PM, let alone the rules of a parliment as explained already.) David Mahone, (In accusing me of spreading false information. I had listed two Interspace Commerce Envoys. One for the company as a whole. The second for Waterloo Station.) SpaceTime, (For accusing me of making my own rules in character. Which may or may not be taken as metagaming depending on how that decision was made basing from what they hacked or did not hack.) and Bauer. (Police wanting known terrorists at a meeting. I'll laugh at the day that any Americian sits down for talks with any terrorist.)
' Wrote:My response to one Sir Jack Fraser was only to say to him that as he is not part of the ruling party that he cannot address a Summit. And treated him as a back bencher. A Back Bencher cannot announce on a parties behalf that they will be attending. British law since Parliment came to power dissallow's a noble as well from becoming a party member. And that a Noble cannot announce nor attend a diplomatic summit or meeting. They can only attend royal duties and tours, which still cannot be announced by themselves. And also a Back Bencher cannot do anything public whilst they are a back bencher.
But we aren't Britain. We're Bretonia, with a unique government style that, while similar to Britain's system, is not the same. In fact, every bit of information is fully available here on the forums. Bretonian Parliament. As you'll see, he holds a seat in the House of Commons as a BAF representative, and in the House of Lords, as a Duke. He's also in the War Cabinet. Information on that can be found there as well. I really don't see where you even got the idea of him being a backbencher. It seems to have been purely an assumption.
' Wrote:A Prime Minister, or a assigned PM from the ruling party can only take part.
The Royalist Party is the ruling party. Sir Frasier is a member of the Royalist Party, one of the leading figures of it.
' Wrote:Also if he is a Duke he is no longer a Sir. As a Sir is for those that are Knighted. A Duke is higher than a Knight, meaning their actual title and how they should be addressed is of Duke name name.
Dukes and other nobles can be referred to as Sir as well, in place of their full title, generally by other nobles.
'Wikipedia' Wrote:A duke (male) or duchess (female) is a member of the nobility, historically of highest rank below the monarch, and historically controlling a duchy.
As you can see from Wikipedia, the Duke is the rank one below the Monarch. With Bretonia's governmental system, that gives him considerable power, and the right to speak on the Queen's behalf. I still haven't found what made you think he was a backbencher.
' Wrote:Lastly calling a women a man is rude, especially when the name clearly implies a woman. I have never known any man called Kim except Chinese and Korean's, for which are not repersented in Freelancer. And also as when Parliment came to power over the Royal Familiy No Military Soldier can be a PM whilst in their active service.
Again; Bretonia's governmental system is different than Britain's. We have made changes necessary to make it work with the limited playerbase Bretonia has. We don't have millions and millions of people to work with, we have a few dozen. Parliament has 4 specific seats FOR active military servicemen/women.
' Wrote:This was to prevent parliment from ever being able to field its own armies ever again. Nor was he on the BAF roster so he is not recognised as a actual repersentative of the BAF.
Not on the BAF roster? Did you even read the thing? I mean, you're not only making a false assumption, you're bluntly testifying against facts. He is on both our forum and our wiki page roster. You didn't do any research before posting, you're now making excuses to try to justify yourself, and still not doing the research. He is on our roster, he is in the BAF. He leads the BAF. My god.
' Wrote:Dab's own character, (It would seem that many people do not know how you become a PM, let alone the rules of a parliment as explained already.)
If you read the thread about Parliament, you might find those answers. I think it's clear to everyone that you've not done that yet. Despite the fact that it's a pinned thread in the most obvious section of the forums for that topic.
You accused me of metagaming?
You claim to have good writing skills?
I beg to differ on both statements of yours.
Deal with it. You are annoying. Always avoiding guilt, accusing others, never admitting your own mistakes. arrogance. You might no agree to it, but then, that is one possible sign of it.
I am out of here, for now, or I fear you will accuse me of powergaming too.:D
You handled the whole curacao thing in such a way that you made yourself a coffin with half of the current official factions waving goodbye. Accusing people of metagaming is one thing, trying to set up a big roleplay event is another, but acting like a genuine douche to people in roleplay because it's not going the way you wanted it to, it's bad to such an extent that I have to agree with Arthur, and mind you that's not common.
We are players, we are a community, think before acting. You are not doing any better with this thread. The concept of you poke I poke is flawed, because each time you poke, the other person will poke you back harder, untill said person pokedestroy your house.
' Wrote:I also denied the Reavers, CR and SCRA from attending for the following reasons:
Cr did not give me any information regarding their relations to any of the houses. Ie, Any trade bewteen them and the House Government or any of its corps, be that via a trade agreement or general trade.
Secondly that they seemed in roleplay, by another characters roleplay, that they openly support terrorism.
I already pointed this out in a skype channel. It's not the job of a government to justify its presence at a meeting; it's the job of the organizer to make sure everyone that should be there will be there. It was your job to search for treaties, peace agreements, trade deals and so on of a specific faction. The Colonial Republic is recognized as an independent state by at least one of the major houses and there are plenty of trade deals with other possible participants. And guess what? They're all on the forum.
And again, you had no problem with metagaming at the beginning of this farce. I didn't see any complains about that when you started to insult the CR (as a faction). You never asked a moderator to delete certain posts. You started using the meta thing when you ran out of plausible arguments. You found your way out of that situation. It was the back door but I have to congratulate you for your skill. Keep it up. It's fun to see shows like these.;)
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