Techmix-nerf and factions which are unique in RELYING on techmixing

[AeternusDoleo]

So... assuming that these tech-mixed combinations are still useable (only a reasonable nerf that keeps any of these mix-max combinations from being op) , I completely agree with the changes.

That is the whole intent of this FLHook. To remove the benefit in PvP prowess that begging tech elsewhere gives you. To drop that down to the level you'd get as if you were using generic civilian tech if the combination is a white cell.
On a red on the other hand it's meant to make it completely unplayable - to stop lolwuts from using an Odin with Salamancas and Krakens on a Xenos ID, or other idiotic combinations like that. When players realise the system itself prevents those combinations from being useful they'll change them into something more sane on their own and that'll drop workload on the admins.

Oh, and at the original post: If there are any factions that have been created for the sole purpose of techmixing (not sure if that's implied or not) then those don't have a frickin' right to exist in a roleplay environment, period.

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Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.

Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.

[Maelstrom]

It will also get rid of the old boy network, and that is a huge plus in my book. Now there won't be any new, freelance, indi players getting refused on tech requests because they aren't friends with the right people.

A system that balances op tech combinations, automatically enforces the tech rules, and allows everybody the same chances at using thier preferred tech? I'm all for that.

@Echo
You've had the spyglass to use, and lane hacker tech tree, for years. The fact that you didn't use it, and instead brokered deals to handpick your pvp strike force just reinforces my point. If you were suddenly loosing the spyglass, with no replacement, and couldn't use anything else without taking a significant hit I might feel a bit for you.

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[Blighter]

So it's ok that others take a nerf to roleplay out nonfaction tech but not for your faction? Wow, what blatant hypocrisy. The fact that you have been doing it for years isn't a defense, it's an indictment. "But Judge, I've been embezzling for so many years, shouldn't it be a part of my salary now?" It's about time the official factions got the chop. You cannot sit there and tell indipendant and freelance players, "No, you can't have our special and revered tech because it's our pride our identity and more special than you." and then complain when your favorite faction is told they can't min max thier pvp by using other factions super special identity stuff. It doesn't matter what window dressing you throw on it afterwords when you flat out admit that you design all your pvp around non-faction tech.

No, it is NOT okay, I have been saying that it is NOT okay even if the system looks to be OKAY and all NICE, I'm saying it ain't okay because it doesn't take into account what previously was there, what was worked for by anyone, what people previously had acquired etcetera into account. It doesn't take the HF into account, it doesn't take the SCRA into account, it doesn't take the guy with the only white-cell permitted Aquilon into account, it doesn't take Joe whitecell boat A with whitecell shooters B - which Joe had to work for so he could acquire and use them - into account. It looks at those and says: All that history and RP and whatever you did with it or how old it is DOES NOT MATTER. You get treated like everyone else.

So I ask: Is it actually "fair" to not take account peoples' previous efforts? Be they faction or otherwise, I'm sure they invested time and effort into getting their stuff, and now they'll get all their stuff nerfed even though they did work for it and all, just because? Do you know how much RP and time people invested into getting XYZ as the tech-chart permitted? This system's not only just going to limit some let's say "tech-abuse" or rather nerf that, it also screws with all the legit non-abusing stuff. Why?

That is the whole intent of this FLHook. To remove the benefit in PvP prowess that begging tech elsewhere gives you. To drop that down to the level you'd get as if you were using generic civilian tech if the combination is a white cell.
On a red on the other hand it's meant to make it completely unplayable - to stop lolwuts from using an Odin with Salamancas and Krakens on a Xenos ID, or other idiotic combinations like that. When players realise the system itself prevents those combinations from being useful they'll change them into something more sane on their own and that'll drop workload on the admins.

Oh, and at the original post: If there are any factions that have been created for the sole purpose of techmixing (not sure if that's implied or not) then those don't have a frickin' right to exist in a roleplay environment, period.

The old system had been in place for like over two and a half years. Do you understand that? A lot of time and effort by people went into acquiring or reaquiring what they had or have now, and you're slapping some arbitrary nerf on it "for the greater good", not taking any and all effort into account.

And no, the HF hasn't been created FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of techmixing, but it had to BUILD AROUND TECHMIXING because the HF DOES NOT AND WILL NOT HAVE A COMPLETE SHIPLINE. And who are you to say what has a -right- to exist and doesn't? You have no right whatsoever to deny the HF or any other faction the right to exist, we play here too, we are part of this community, we play the game and do RP just as everyone else. Who are you to suggest that you'd deny us the right to exist and on what grounds? Because we had to work with what we had, that is no tech of our own, and actually DID so successfully? And now we've to kick all that into trash? All the work, time, effort, history behind it, anything?

Okay. Then YOU give the SCRA a light Battleship to replace their Osirises. YOU give the HF shipclasses to replace each used kind of ship. YOU give the LWB and Bundschuh their own shiplines. YOU make it so EVERYONE who has characters mentioned in the tech-permissions thread can continue functioning as before without some arbitrary nerf AT THEIR COST, while YOU ensure the "balance and fairness" of that system of yours, a system that is kicking the HF's balance down the drain.

Well... you can also see as equality giving the HF the means to stand up to the LN in battles like they can right now, rather than take away that ability. The thing is, while the techmix nerf does indeed make everyone equal in regards to tech mixing, it rather misses the point when it comes to the capabilities of each faction. Taking into account how much the current balance favours combined fleet tactics (to the point where a good composition combined fleet can defeat opponents far more skilled than them in equal numbers - by simple virtue of counters) denying the HF - a faction whose primary (and arguably only) goal is to fight with the LN (unlike the pirate factions who don't have capital access, those can also pirate, smuggle, etc.) seems like denying them the means to conduct their battles and roleplay effectively.

While I support the new system going into place, I also think we should start off far more liberally with it than it is planned to, restricting as we go along rather than have everything restricted from the get go and then unrestrict as we go. It's very much a question of methods as much as it is a question of means. It also lets factions like HF prove that this particular thing is needed for their RP.

[Vito]

Before anything else, I don't really care about HF or its problems and this post it not related to HF in any way.

Okay. Then YOU give the SCRA a light Battleship to replace their Osirises. YOU give the HF shipclasses to replace each used kind of ship. YOU give the LWB and Bundschuh their own shiplines. YOU make it so EVERYONE who has characters mentioned in the tech-permissions thread can continue functioning as before without some arbitrary nerf AT THEIR COST, while YOU ensure the "balance and fairness" of that system of yours, a system that is kicking the HF's balance down the drain.

Why? Who says every faction needs battleships or their own shiplines? How would LWB having battleships make any sense in RP? If you ask me both the Corsairs and Outcasts should have little to no battleships and only a handful of cruisers.

This is, after all, Diso RP 24/7. Diversity and balance (or the lack of) make this server interesting and exciting. If everyone had the same space boats with the same pew sticks the large variety of factions and Disco itself would make no sense.

In my opinion the techmix nerf its the best thing that could ever happen to Disco and for a million reasons it makes perfect sense. The "we worked hard to get a PvP advantage" argument makes me sad and there should be no room for it on a RP server

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[Zelot]

we still have openly available civilian ships for snubs right? So it seems this might just be a problem with factions that use caps but don't have their own. Which is a very very small percentage of the server population.

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[casero]

Following your words, nothing should be changed never.

Camtheman really dislikes cruise drains because it affected his ability to fight with Battleships, sucks to be him, he has to live with it.

Many people disliked bomber guns, they have to live with it.

Many people used to have whatever tech they wanted with a Bio writen in forum, they were told to ask for permission for the things they already had.

The Spyglass was for open use once, then it got restricted, players were told to sell the ships.

Same with the Rogue Destroyer.

If I remember well, HF started using Hacker technology, then Navy technology, well, apparently (for what has been revealed) you can't have both working well now. As everyone else has done in the past, you will have to find a way to get over it.

You won't be kicking LN butts so easyly now? Maybe, I'm sure you will find another way to kick them.

Claiming that you need those ships because you need to fight LN is a weak argument, as many people have to fight LN, many pirates, and they don't need to combine red or white cells to do so.

[Maelstrom]

Okay. Then YOU give the SCRA a light Battleship to replace their Osirises. YOU give the HF shipclasses to replace each used kind of ship. YOU give the LWB and Bundschuh their own shiplines. YOU make it so EVERYONE who has characters mentioned in the tech-permissions thread can continue functioning as before without some arbitrary nerf AT THEIR COST, while YOU ensure the "balance and fairness" of that system of yours, a system that is kicking the HF's balance down the drain.

You don't NEED a light battleship. Lots of factions don't have one. HF has the spyglass, that's already far more than most factions have. If you WANT another you can take the hit, just like everybody else. That is the very essence of fair.

The whole point of the new system is to make it so that people CAN'T continue to function as before. Now tech-mixing is truely going to be about the rp, not the pvp. If you want to roleplay a HF in a rogue destroyer you still can, you just aren't going to kick seven kinds of tail with your tech-mix doing it.

This system even makes more sense than the previous system. It used to be, "You can't use this cuz we said so, nyah." Now it's, "You can use this but it has a different set of system specs and doesn't mesh well with your current systems software and hardware." At least that is a plausible roleplay reason.

Addendum: For those who say tech restrictions enforced by the factions not selling makes sense, let me say this. I am American. My wife drives a Japanese car, I have a Taiwanese T.V., an American Computer with Chinese made parts, my dad drives a millitary surplus Jeep, and my brother drives a European Range Rover. If I want I can pick up Russian, English, American, French, and German guns at the local hunting outlet. Many of them are automatic weapons with the actions modified (an easy fix to put them back to full rock and roll) to semi-auto. If you have the money you can buy anything you want, up to and including millitary surplus tanks and planes. That whole line of reasoning was just plain stupid. At least the new system will have some plausibility. We all know what a hassel it can be to get incompatable systems to work.

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[Blighter]

Before anything else, I don't really care about HF or its problems and this post it not related to HF in any way.
Why? Who says every faction needs battleships or their own shiplines? How would LWB having battleships make any sense in RP? If you ask me both the Corsairs and Outcasts should have little to no battleships and only a handful of cruisers.

This is, after all, Diso RP 24/7. Diversity and balance (or the lack of) make this server interesting and exciting. If everyone had the same space boats with the same pew sticks the large variety of factions and Disco itself would make no sense.

In my opinion the techmix nerf its the best thing that could ever happen to Disco and for a million reasons it makes perfect sense. The "we worked hard to get a PvP advantage" argument makes me sad and there should be no room for it on a RP server

I should have specified, I didn't mean a whole new shipline for every faction out there INCLUDING Battleships and Cruisers or the like, and I sure as hell didn't mean to have LWB Battleships. However:

Unioners get a Bomber and Fighter.

LWB and Bundschuh don't get those.

All their IDs allow up to Gunboat-class ships.

Red Hessians have a LF, VHF, Bomber, Cruiser and soon a Battleship.

You know where this makes people go in large part? Not to the Bundschuh or LWB, because they get nothing fancy of their own, and so they have to do with a nerf.

Why use a nerfed Odin with Destroyers / Lugers as LWB / Bundy, when instead you can be a Hessian using an un-nerfed Odin with Natters? This is still a PvP server, and I think the huge amount of Outcast, Corsair and Hessian Indies speak VOLUMES when it comes to this matter, as they go where the fun and cool things are.

Those ain't with the LWB or Bundies in this case.



Now I'll say that for some factions the ability to share or use mixed tech is vital and integral for them to flourish in a pvp-environment as a result, because if they do not have their own tech of one kind, they have to scavenge it from somewhere else so THEY can have the SAME chances like a faction that already has XYZ tech and ships. You can say that this is Discovery RP 24/7 all you want, but PvP is an integral part of the server, and an integral part of RP, just look at all those Corsairs and Outcasts and Military factions out there shooting one another day after day after day. And it's less of an argument of "we worked hard to get our PvP advantage" as it's one of "we worked for something and now you're breaking it, and we have to fix it ourselves or try to, again".

[Vito]

I am sorry, but while I see a lot of words all I understand is "we don't want to lose our PvP advantage". As others said, it wouldn't be fair for someone to have the edge over small(er) players. If said advantage is what keeps your faction going then you're doing it wrong and it's your job to find a way to make it interesting for the indie wanting to join a faction.

This might sound harsh, but not every faction has to be a winner on Disco since life is not always fair. A couple of days ago I was talking to someone who asked me why the |Sails don't allow non-corsair tech (except for a handful of shared Mamorus for the high ranks only, ships we will be happy to scrap once this is implemented) because that keeps people away from the faction. My answer was quality > quantity. We'd rather have 10 members who really love the faction and are there for the RP behind it than 100 PvP hungry memebers who will "mount everything on everything"

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The Corsair Trade Company

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[AndrzejB]

You get treated like everyone else.

What's wrong with being treated like everyone else?

Some of the NPC factions you mention in the post above are far less popular due to their extremely limited ZoI and limited variety of RP (e.g. Bundschuh). Not solely because of the pewsticks and such. Imho.

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[...] Outcasts get sniffy [...]

Bloody foreigners.