Eh, regardless. I'd honestly like seeing some of the vanilla ships getting an upgrade, right now bringing one to a fire fight is like saying "Please, kill me, I don't want to live in this life anymore" rather then actually being a worthy opponent. This is because the Vanilla game was balanced in a traditional RPG sense, which is: Start of the game, Enemies are weak, so are you, your guns and ships are worthless later on. As time goes by you get better ships and better gear. Put this in a multiplayer game that isn't co-op and you've got a problem. Why are liberty ships worse off then Rheinland? Isn't Liberty meant to be quite a super-power in the story line? I know there are restat VHF's for the factions but it seems silly that a Liberty Light fighter has the HP equal to that of a single shot from a Rheinland Light fighter.
Kerc, are you actually flying one of the Vanilla ships?
Because, if not, i can tell you, that most of them are Uber.
Take Wrath for example. One of the best ships.
Then take Blood Dragon HF for an example. The best ship (subjective opinion).
Sabre is one of the best as well. Eagle is pretty good too.
So, i can't see your point here, mate?
Yes, they are more vulnerable to blasts, but they have better stats then most new ships.
Vanilla ship balance is not the issue here, but they would become weak if you would take Armor upgd from all fighters.
Because, you would not get a chance to make a mistake.
As they are now, they are pretty much better then new ships.
Spear has a point as well, but that point dies after 3h battle.
I know what you mean, but i think people are getting bored from long fights.
As Yngen said, fighting in a fighter should be the most dangerous thing.
And yet, it is the safest, right now.
Lucendez Wrote:
It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.
Now when I was opening subjects bout same problem, fighter weapons being to ineffective in dogfight, or fighter armor being too great, I got "booed". Now the subject is opened again...
I honestly believe fighters to be balanced good enough vs. capital ships. Small and agile, they should be able to survive barrage from cap.ships. But they need a bigger "punch", specially vs. bombers. Right now, it's almost impossible for fighters to stop bombers from killing their target. Many people will say: "WTF fighters can easily win against a bomber" and that is true...but is also beside the point. 1 on 1, they can win, but this game is not about 1 on 1. They need to be able to HURT bombers while they do their torpedo runs. Maybe introduce "weapon damage upgrade" that would cost a lot, and counter "armor upgrade"? I myself have NOTHING WHAT SO EVER against dying fast, If I'm also able to kill fast...
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Thing is though, why should a fighter be able to stand toe to toe with a destroyer and above?
In Freespace 2, X3, Xwing/Tie-Fighter I utterly dreaded going near those horrible capships with their beam cannons (FS2 and X3's Khaak), tons and tons of turbolasers (xwing/tie fighter) and just general terror (flak oh god)
In all honesty, capships should only be bought down by two or three fighters or a couple of bombers. This promotes team-work and less solo independents.
If it were possible, it'd be cool if destroyers and above did 330 or less at cruise, and fighters 350 or above. This way fighters can both:
a) outrun and ambush a destroyer
b) flee
This would make it hard for any bullies to meander about the galaxy blowing up fighters willy-nilly. The fighter pilots would have the choice of running or staying.
e: if nothing else, how about a rule where if the fight takes more than an hour, both sides can vote to leave combat and pretend the fight didn't happen. OORP as heck, I know... but there's a point where you have to sit back and go, "wait a minute, this is just stupid". I have to go AFK quite frequently to help my family with things, go to the toilet, make a drink...
' Wrote:Kerc, are you actually flying one of the Vanilla ships?
Because, if not, i can tell you, that most of them are Uber.
Take Wrath for example. One of the best ships.
Then take Blood Dragon HF for an example. The best ship (subjective opinion).
Sabre is one of the best as well. Eagle is pretty good too.
So, i can't see your point here, mate?
Yes, they are more vulnerable to blasts, but they have better stats then most new ships.
Vanilla ship balance is not the issue here, but they would become weak if you would take Armor upgd from all fighters.
Because, you would not get a chance to make a mistake.
As they are now, they are pretty much better then new ships.
Spear has a point as well, but that point dies after 3h battle.
I know what you mean, but i think people are getting bored from long fights.
As Yngen said, fighting in a fighter should be the most dangerous thing.
And yet, it is the safest, right now.
You contradict yourself here a bit... flying any vanilla fighter is very dangerous.... ask Blunt how he won against 2 Chimaeras in his LF.... one nuke.. and you'r dead.....
The "simplest" solution would be to make wireframes for all fighters/bombers.... I see that some people have tried to make them.. but without much sucess yet....
Or we could go the other way and remove the wireframes from vanilla ships....
Vanilla/non-vanilla ships are just about balanced as it is now....not all of them though....I see it as very difficult to try to rebalance them with other classes and each other while making the fights shorter.....
If they become one homogenous group... either all with or without wireframes... it might be possible.
If all ships will lose wireframes... we could drop the armor upgrade... or decrease it to some 1.5.
@StarButt.... imagine if bombers had wireframes.... you could nuke them on almost every turn... blast them with cannonballs/ sunslayers.... no problem
@Kaiden... Tie-fighter is not really the best example at all... in Tie-Defender.. I could disable any ship and then kill it (as shields didn't regenerate).. .dodging was not a problem either. In Missile Gunboat I could kill any number of capital ships with reload....
Freespace 2 was a better example
anyway... as it is now a single bomber can no longer take capships down on his own... a gunboat yes.... cruiser... if you have the best setup and the captain is not good.... BS... only with NPC help
---------------------------------
a side note about completely removing armor:
...... my Wrath with 5000 hull damage per shot would be able to take down any fighter in 2-3 shots... sorry but... poor newbies... imagine when they make their first joust... and get Mini + Canonball + 2-3 5k shots....and die... would they think the game is balanced?
once I even got a nice combo hit with Mini Razor and Cannonball hitting at just about the same time... on a Sabre.... *bang*.... long fight indeed.....
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
Well it seems you and I disagree on the finer points a little, chopper. You seem to believe increasing the projectile speeds will dramatically increase damage dealt by fighters to other fighters. I have to admit that's the neatest way to shorten fighter vs fighter battles but I still don't think it's the fairest or best. You also seem to believe an increase in basic gun damage would unbalance fighters vs capships. Why?
Like I already noted, the majority of damage dealt to capships is by first killing their shields (not using basic guns) and then hitting the hull with specialist weapons like novas, nukes and torps (again not basic guns). One Supernova Antimatter Cannon deals the same amount of damage per second as ten Kraken type 2's. Room for a little boost on the Krakens wouldn't you admit?
If you need a perspective on why increased projectile speeds is a bad idea, then I bid you all to do this:
Open up Discovery in Open Singleplayer, buy a fully kitted out VHF and battle some Nomads in Kappa. You will get stung, as there's zero lag to throw their aim. That's with a mix of 600m/s and 750m/s guns. Now imagine the same scenario with guns only increased to 650m/s and 800m/s. Nightmarish. Or try and survive anywhere near a Nomad capship with their already increased projectile speeds, they will tear you apart in seconds without fail.
Fighter basic gun projectile speeds are optimal as they are. Any slower and you'd barely hit anything, any faster and you'd barely miss.
Badger... NPC guns each get their own reticule... each gun works independantly of the main body. That is why they are so accurate... Its basically like having two mouse cursors, one grouped with 600m/s guns, the other grouped with 750m/s guns. Provided you've got three hands, or a mate to help you aim, you can do it to. This is one of the ways in which the NPC's "cheat" because they do things we could never do.
Also, the supernova dps is taken out of context in the instance you describe. Calculate the damage per unit energy used. That is more accurate.
But if you guys think that Fighter fights take too long, do it this way.
15% damage increase to all fighter guns damage.
bomber torpedo weapons unchanged.
10% damage increase to GB weapons.
5% damage increase to Cruiser/destroyer and battleship weapons.
@Mjonlir - I don't know about nukes, because, i don't sit on them too often.
Only once in my Eagle, by a friendly nuke. I died right away:P
Yes, nukes are instant killers for vanilla ships, i agree.
But, they are much easier to dodge then cannonballs.
At least for me. Especially if you have a CD. Mines are not the problem then.
Yes, i would like to see wireframes on all ships, but i don't think its's going to happen in near future.
And yes, i agree, if all ships loose wireframe, Armor upgrade could be ditched.
But, Armor upgrade ditching is not going to help us really, aye?
Because, you will use less bots to heal up, right?
And you will have more bots for recharging (if that's the way bots work with Armor upgd, not sure about that).
@Badger
Anyway, 800 speed would not be too much.
Gunboats use 1300 weapons, and still i can dodge them in a fighter for a very long time.
Yes, they are less agile, they can't sit on your tail, but nevertheless, it's 1300 speed.
4 gunboats were on Nomad LF's tail (Keeper) trying to hit him. Not even 1 shot could hit his hull.
So, i don't think 600 minimum and 850 maximum weapon speed would be too uber.
And i say it again, i don't think increasing damage for fighter weps would unbalance things.
But i know that most people here think that.
As i said, i'm supporting your proposition. But i fear we are minority.
@McNeo - I would agree with this too, but not for gunboats. Gunboats are overpowered.
That's a fact. Improve cruiser/BS weapons, leave GB as it is.
Quote:Thing is though, why should a fighter be able to stand toe to toe with a destroyer and above?
Excuse me, what are you talking about?
Are you aware that 3 fighters are minimum for taking down a destroyer?
2 can take his shield down, if he's blind, or afk.
How can they possibly stay toe to toe with a destroyer?
And independents rarely fly Fighters. You will see them in capital ships, most of the time.
And why are you talking about improving Capital ships now?
It would not promote team play, it would promote capital ship whoring.
Sorry if i got it all wrong.
Lucendez Wrote:
It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.
Well, increasing fighter weapons projectile speed, is the safest way to increase chances to hit fast moving target, while leaving fighters vs cap.ships balance pretty much unchanged. Even 500m/s guns hit cap.ships as good as any other, but fast movers and small targets are problem.
Most projectiles in FL are ridiculously slow anyway...Now when u add to the equation: Lag, low dmg, slow refire, and fast moving target, you get dogfights that are tedious and boring. It looks like modern jet dogfight, in which they're not armed with 20/30mm mini-guns, but guns taken from a Sopwith Camel.
Wireframe on bombers would solve little, cos u cannot chase bomber with a nuke mine or a missile. They don't track good enough. It would only speed up 1 vs 1 against a bomber. Increased projectile speed, would help, cos fighter would hit moving bomber much more.
And if the balance is like this to satisfy noobs I'll ask you: should Counter Strike remove all weapons but Glocks just so noobs don't die instantly when facing a skilled player?
Historical speaking, flying fighters should be one of the "safest things" to do in combat, compared to being infantry, or in a tank, or in a slow fat target like bomber. As a good example you can compare losses of allied bomber commands, to that of fighters during WW2. Flaks were never "main weapon" against fighters, and they shouldn't be that in Disco either. Barrage from a cap.ship can force fighter to go defensive, evade instead of shoot, and even damage it, if pilot makes a mistake. It should never be so efficient, to become primary "anti fighter" weapon. Only other fighters should be THAT.
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The Vanilla ship imbalance, in my opinion, should be solved by the removal of the wireframes. Of course if it cannot be done... The one issue is that the ships will lose the "falling apart" effect from Vanilla, and that was pretty cool. So, question is: Balance or Style?
Fights takeing too long? Well just decreasing the ammount of armour on the ships seems the most logical... increasing the damage may work, but incraesing it on the fighter (lower) end may make others demand an increase all the way up. It is easier to decrease the stats on the lower (fighter) end... Projectile speed; the only other stat I can see this being directly compared is the fighter agility (or the armour on fighters with a determined agility stat). Now, because agility is not easily determined, I feel the projectile speed is kinda arbitrary if your not just balanceing the guns against each other. Decreasing armour seems the most logical, though the insta kill weapons issues may be complained about some more after...
Bomber armour. I have always thought it seemed ridiculous that bombers had such advantagous armour. How often does a bomber actually get hit by a Capship? How different is that to a regular VHF? Bombers are just VHF with a much better power supply and the ability to capitalize on it. The armour is just another advantage. My suggestion is to have the armour on a given bomber equal to the armour on the VHF that has the same "agility" as the bomber. Don't know if this is already the case or not...
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