You need three things to wage a war: money, money, money. Assembly lines tend to cost more than what they produce. By many orders of magnitude. Someone would have to invest enormous money in them. Let me remind you that jump-gates and tradelanes were considered expensive even for Houses.
Smaller groups don't have that amount of cash and even if they do, they rarely have a central governing body which would be able to accumulate required funds and spend them on such investment.
Supply lines are frequently attacked. No constant stream of parts going in = no constant stream of capships going out. You surely have seen what effect can a minor disruption in tranport mean to a factory (minor, i.e. flood).
Political issues: many commodities are produced solely by one group/nation.
Feel free to PM me regarding any grammar/spelling/other language mistakes I have made in my posts.
Okay, since no one has made the OTHER obvious statement about this topic, I'll throw something else out there as chum as more scent.
In Disco, it's now around 820. Based upon when things here in Sol went completely to hell - around 2200 AD - that means that Disco is happening about 1,000 years in our future, give or take a couple of hundred. Which is fine, really.
Why?
Well, it's pretty simple. Let's look BACKWARDS 800 years, to the 12th and 13th centuries. Wow, the mariners compass was invented, as were eyeglasses. The Chinese invented cannons, rockets, and grenades. But only some brave Vikings had crossed the Atlantic, and no record exists of anyone crossing the Pacific.
The first printing press was made in the 15th Century - so less than 600 years ago. Major explorations across the Atlantic weren't until the 16th Century - and even then it was still on wooden ships - 500 years ago. Our technology that we have today has come from accelerated change - even the assembly line that I have been discussing all throughout this thread didn't come into physical being until literally only 100 years ago, although it had been proposed 100 years before that.
From the Discovery perspective, it's been 800 years since people left Sol. But when they got to Sirius, they had one major advantage over our ancestors 800 years ago. They already KNEW about modern technology, and they brought it with them. Look at computers - these things we're using now. In the electronic digital form, they've only been around for 70 years. They've gone from being the size of entire houses to where now those of you with an iPad have more computer power at your fingertips than NASA had when they put a man on the moon. That's 40 years ago.
Now - the objections that have been made here regarding construction techniques would make sense if, when people got to Sirius, they had to learn everything all over again. But they didn't - they already knew about assembly lines, factories, advanced computers, and space flight. All they had to do was get the raw materials to exploit so they could start BUILDING those things.
Remember, we've gone from people not even able to cross the Atlantic 800 years ago to being able to fly non-stop around the globe in less than a single day. We've gone from hand delivered messages taking weeks to cross a country to being able to press the button and call anyone nearly anywhere in the world, any time of day, on your 'Dick Tracy' phone.
Knjaz, you keep talking about how airplanes get more and more complex, so it's tougher and tougher to build them. While that's a good thought, keep in mind that it's (a) 800 years in the future and (b) how much things will improve by then in design of both vehicles as WELL as manufacturing processes. Right now, one of the reasons airplanes take so long to build is that they're simply not ordering that many of them, so why make them when they're not going to be used?
Let's look at some example of assorted numbers of US aircraft from WWII to present day. There were 5,200 F-4 Phantoms made while it was being produced; 2,900 A-4 Skyhawks; 4,500 F-16's; more than 15,000 P-51's, 10,000 P-38's, 16,000 P-47's 100 B-1's, 740 B-52's, 12,000 B-17's, 4,000 B-29's, 18,000 B-24's, 10,000 B-25's - and only 64 F-117's and 20 B-2's.
We only NEED 20 B-2's in our inventory right now. The B-2 can carry 80 500lb bombs halfway around the world. A single B-17 could carry 9 500lb bombs 800 miles. So you've got one airplane replacing 9 - with only 2 people flying, instead of 90. But here's the little thing you're forgetting - all of those WWII aircraft were built in 4 years - because we needed them then. 40,000 fighters and 44,000 bombers - in 4 years. The US was in and on a war footing. Since then, we haven't NEEDED to produce that many fighters or bombers - but we knew how to do so.
Liberty is at war with Rheinland, Bretonia was at war with Kusari and is now at war with Gallia - and vice-versa. You do a lot of things in a war that you don't do - or even NEED to do - in peacetime.
Everyone has been talking about how hard it is to build ships. During WWII, the US built 120 escort carriers - in 4 years, not 5. 30 per year translates out to 1 every two weeks. 9 light aircraft carriers, and 24 fleet carriers were also built. 250 destroyers were built, 35 cruisers, 14 heavy cruisers, 10 battleships, and oh, yeah, about 600 PT boats.
Again - by one country. In 4 years. Using production methods that are incredibly manpower intensive, because we didn't HAVE welding robots then like we do now.
If we had a real shooting war start right now, don't you about imagine that we'd figure out a way to ramp up the production on these super fancy fighters, if we needed them? Why would you assume that our 'descendants' 800 some years in the Discovery future wouldn't be able to do the same? Everyone keeps talking about money, money, money.
What's your money worth if you're a conquered people?
What kind of hit did Rheinland's economy take with the loss of half the Hamburg system? What about Kusari, or Bretonia? The civilian population is going to be working round the clock to support the war effort - or they're going to lose. The mechanical population - all those robots - are going to be working around the clock to support the war effort - or doing whatever it is they're programmed to do - or they're going to lose. You're not out there making lots of new factories to build refrigerators or washers and dryers for your population right now - you do that AFTER the war is over.
THAT is why you're going to be able to build all those battleships, cruisers, carriers, destroyers, fighters, bombers, and everything else we have in the Discovery universe. You HAVE to be able to do so - or you're going to lose the war. The basis for rapid construction technology as I have proposed for the Discovery universe exists now, today, in real life, just as the basis for our technology today came from inventions 600 - 800 years ago. That's also why it's called science fiction - you don't limit yourself to what we can do today, you take a what if and run with it.
Look at the big picture. The known universe - Gallia and Sirius - are ALL at war. Sure, people still live, love, and make babies. Criminals still exist, as do politicians, bankers, farmers, and industrialists. But everyone has a hanging sword of Damocles over their heads. We just saw the Nomads blow up an entire planet. If we actually WERE able to reproduce planetary warfare in the game, don't you about imagine that kinetic energy weapons would be used against planets - unless there was a fear that they would be used against your own populations as well, thus making that a sword you dare not use - but must be prepared to do so needs must?
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
First, the major limiting factors for production times are generally not technical. Production systems are simple things, whether large open docks where everything is assembled at once or long advancing lines. It is possible to achieve awe inspiring speeds with most any method given enough people, money, and physical resources. That is where the crux of the problem is.
I'll start with people. You aren't just limited by the number of individuals in the crew. For example, how many people are needed to design and produce each individual battleship? How many people are needed to design, build, produce, and upkeep the robotics needed to build a battleship? How many people are needed to educate the people needed for the previously mentioned tasks? How many more to support them domestically? How many of the base population are even capable of performing these advanced tasks? Yes, technology has advanced, making it easier and quicker to build the ships themselves, but each technological advance increases the human component.
Next let's talk resources. Each technological advance increaseases the basic resources needed exponentially. Building an old viking long boat only took a small amount of lumber, coke, and metal. Building a modern day ship takes so much more in the way of resources that it's not even compareable. Yes, we can assemble the ships faster, but the gathering and production of the components needed is a major drain on even large and healthy economies. Even the most robust economy can support the construction of only so many war tools.
Finally, lets talk money. Money can argueably be considered a basic resource, but the amount needed and it's flexible nature, set it in a category of it's own, I think. What a credit is worth is not static, it changes as years and political situations progress. More to the point, what that credit can purchase is just as fluid. If certain resources can only be obtained from certain areas, then the people who control that area control thier distribution. The problem is that the construction of war machines takes a vast variety and amount of resources, some of which are going to be controlled by your enemies. The oil wars of contemporary times are a good example of this. Enemies can still obtain these restricted resources, but they have to go through convoluted cirtuits and the price is inflated greatly. Simply put, building massive war machines takes massive amounts of credits no matter the time line.
All of this boils down to the fact that it really doesn't matter how fast construction of ships in our little universe is. What matters is how many of the craft each group can produce and support. That is what should determine what groups get what and how many of each. Factions such as House Navies and the Corsairs should have no problem producing large fleets. Factions such as the Rogues, Gaians, and Hogosha simply don't have the ability to meet the above requirements. That's not to say they couldn't build/steal a small handfull of capital ships, but large navies and shipyards for mass production of capital fleets should be as far beyond them as it is for third world countries today.
The material problem is further compounded by the sheer number of raw ingredients.
When one mixes titanium and aluminium, one creates a Basic Alloy.
When one mixes Beryllium and aluminium, one creates a Super Alloy.
One then uses Basic Alloys, Super Alloys, Hydrocarbons, Polymers and Boron to create Ship Hull Panels.
And now one, after having to locate and mine copious amounts of Titanium, aluminium, Beryllium, and Boron, and having to locate and harvest hydrocarbon molecules, as well as process plastics, one finally has the materials need for the frame and hull of a ship.
TL:DR.
Spaceships aren't made of steel.
And what about the engines? Nuclear fusion engines. Not exactly a car.
gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|
' Wrote:All of this boils down to the fact that it really doesn't matter how fast construction of ships in our little universe is. What matters is how many of the craft each group can produce and support. That is what should determine what groups get what and how many of each. Factions such as House Navies and the Corsairs should have no problem producing large fleets. Factions such as the Rogues, Gaians, and Hogosha simply don't have the ability to meet the above requirements. That's not to say they couldn't build/steal a small handfull of capital ships, but large navies and shipyards for mass production of capital fleets should be as far beyond them as it is for third world countries today.
Wouldn't agree with Corsairs part. Really, taking into account planet they've found themselves on, their "industry", resource shortage etc, it'd be really hard to be even at half of house capability. They'd be one of the most powerful of "third world countries". But they'd still have a "third world country" military.
Would more or less agree with the rest.
Quote:Remember, we've gone from people not even able to cross the Atlantic 800 years ago to being able to fly non-stop around the globe in less than a single day. We've gone from hand delivered messages taking weeks to cross a country to being able to press the button and call anyone nearly anywhere in the world, any time of day, on your 'Dick Tracy' phone.
Knjaz, you keep talking about how airplanes get more and more complex, so it's tougher and tougher to build them. While that's a good thought, keep in mind that it's (a) 800 years in the future and (b) how much things will improve by then in design of both vehicles as WELL as manufacturing processes. Right now, one of the reasons airplanes take so long to build is that they're simply not ordering that many of them, so why make them when they're not going to be used?
Let's look at some example of assorted numbers of US aircraft from WWII to present day. There were 5,200 F-4 Phantoms made while it was being produced; 2,900 A-4 Skyhawks; 4,500 F-16's; more than 15,000 P-51's, 10,000 P-38's, 16,000 P-47's 100 B-1's, 740 B-52's, 12,000 B-17's, 4,000 B-29's, 18,000 B-24's, 10,000 B-25's - and only 64 F-117's and 20 B-2's.
We only NEED 20 B-2's in our inventory right now. The B-2 can carry 80 500lb bombs halfway around the world. A single B-17 could carry 9 500lb bombs 800 miles. So you've got one airplane replacing 9 - with only 2 people flying, instead of 90. But here's the little thing you're forgetting - all of those WWII aircraft were built in 4 years - because we needed them then. 40,000 fighters and 44,000 bombers - in 4 years. The US was in and on a war footing. Since then, we haven't NEEDED to produce that many fighters or bombers - but we knew how to do so.
Liberty is at war with Rheinland, Bretonia was at war with Kusari and is now at war with Gallia - and vice-versa. You do a lot of things in a war that you don't do - or even NEED to do - in peacetime.
Everyone has been talking about how hard it is to build ships. During WWII, the US built 120 escort carriers - in 4 years, not 5. 30 per year translates out to 1 every two weeks. 9 light aircraft carriers, and 24 fleet carriers were also built. 250 destroyers were built, 35 cruisers, 14 heavy cruisers, 10 battleships, and oh, yeah, about 600 PT boats.
Again - by one country. In 4 years. Using production methods that are incredibly manpower intensive, because we didn't HAVE welding robots then like we do now.
Today's top-grade Military Industrial Complex is very different from WW2 Era. In short - there's no way even for US to quickly speed up production of modern (not a totally downgraded and simplified version of it) fighter aircraft in amounts required to at least partially cover losses in an all-out war with 1st tier military power. Same applies for everybody else on the even greater scale. If sh would hit the f, what great powers have in their armies + reserves, including stockpiles - is what they have.
Granted, it's partially due to the specifics of modern warfare in case of global f-up, where your production chains will be taken out very quickly, but mainly it's due to the reasons Maelstrom pointed out - Yes, technology has advanced, making it easier and quicker to build the ships themselves, but each technological advance increases the human component. No more 16 yr kids, 30 yr womans making top-tier tanks on your factories, that were producing tractors just a month ago. Nor USA, nor us, nor anyone else have that kind of mobilization capability anymore. You have a very limited amount of highly qualified workforce, special equipment etc, and this is what you'll have to deal with. Civilian shipyards can produce you large amount of transports, maybe even "junker's" aircraft/helicopter carriers, landing ships. They won't make you a proper SSBNs.
On another point, I absolutely agree about money part. In war-time economy of all-out war for surivival you don't need money, you need resources - and if you have all required resources (food for workers, etc), then you're set. Can even disable currency for a while and establish planned economy (works wonders in total mobilization conditions, compared to capitalistic one, since there're no private property.) But Maelstorm already pointed out why it won't help you as much as in 1941-1945. (but given enough time.... and enough will of your people, you will be, eventually, able to significantly speed up production. Just, your whole economy, educational system etc. will be working for that. And there's a chance it just won't take it.)
Now, about the speed technological development. First, we can assume that in the beginning (at least few decades), there was either a stagnation or fall in technology level, due to all resources being targeted at survival of colonists (hell, 10.000 (or 40.000?)) people, in unknown world, with kinda minimum amount of machinery, tools etc. But really, that won't affect much on 800-year scale.
Then, if Freelancer would be developing its tech as fast as we're here in the last 100 years, then I bet it'd look totally different. If I remember correctly, few Liberty ships look exactly like the ones from cinematic, of what happened 800 years ago.... :rolleyes:
' Wrote:Then, if Freelancer would be developing its tech as fast as we're here in the last 100 years, then I bet it'd look totally different. If I remember correctly, few Liberty ships look exactly like the ones from cinematic, of what happened 800 years ago.... :rolleyes:
That's actually one of the points I've been trying to make, and probably doing a crappy job of it - thus making this thread a bit longer than needed.
Our 'Freelancer' and 'Discovery' descendants already knew about advanced technology and the manufacturing techniques of Earth when they got to Sirius. It's entirely probable that they had to roll things back for a while - they had to make the machines to make the machines to make the machines that were needed to produce the airplanes and first self-built space ships.
So that may have taken Liberty 100 years or so to catch up to where they were, pre-leaving Sol. Even with the population issues, though, it probably didn't take ANY planetary group, including the Corsairs, more than 200 years.
Yeah, I'm being heretical by saying that about the Corsairs. You know why? Omicron Gamma has a big asteroid field, doesn't it? You're saying, what does that have to do with anything? Really quite simple. Once you get the ability to mine asteroids and start doing so - you no longer have any material shortages. Period. You might have a shortage of arable farmland due to a hostile environment, which is what happened with Crete.
But actually needed 50,000 tons - or 5,000,000 of iron for something? No problem - go melt an asteroid or two.
John Ringo has a series of books (not his 'Ghost' series, which are something else entirely) which show just how and what can be accomplished. The first book in the series, 'Live Free or Die', shows quite literally a step by step process for doing this.
So Darth, you need all sorts of fancy material components - go melt some rocks. Not going to be that tough. Some systems will be shorter in materials than others. But there's a LOT of rocks in Sirius.
Maelstrom is correct in that smaller factions that don't have the support of an actual house (whether apparent or hidden) - or are allied with a group that has a real shipyard - are going to be VERY limited in their ability to produce much more than gunships. So the Rogues having more than MAYBE a couple of big caps is highly unlikely. Same for the Gaians - unless they got a Corsair shipyard to make it for them, they're not going to have the production facilities. The Guild Core DID have Liberty make their first series of cap ships - that was established a long time ago on the first Thresher info card.
(11-21-2013, 12:53 PM)Jihadjoe Wrote: Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.
Yeah, you can melt rocks if you want, but do note that if you need specialized materials (as Darth said), you're going to need some specialized rocks, unless you know there are trace amounts of those materials in your asteroid field, in which case you need to melt a LOT of rocks.
The thing is, if the rock is just a rock, it's not gonna be helpful unless you can do modern-day alchemy. Yeah, you can find all these random materials that we need on Earth. And I might be wrong here, but you just might not be able to find them in plentiful supply in an asteroid belt.
You can't mine any rock for any material, lolz. Rocks are just rocks if there is no ore.
To make it simple. Battleships are not cars even in 1000 years from now. They still require minds, manpower and more importantly - resources. No freaking way any group but Houses have all the required components to build more than a concept\prototype. That's if we are talking about vanilla. Discovery is so messed up that everything is possible here and the answer is simple.
Magic.
' Wrote:Sorry, this whole post sounds like a blatant attempt to provide an excuse to PvP without any real role-play to back it up.
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