Lets improve the gameplay between the Hessians and the Corsairs

[Knjaz]

Vito makes an interesting point; I saw a similar situation the other day.

Rheinlanders were camping out the New York gate in Texas; a fleet consisting of four battleships, 5/6 cruisers and a couple of gunboats.

Liberty had amassed a fleet of 4/5 Noughts/BC/SC, and were waiting to go on through. One LABC goes through and gets instakilled by the cruisers and battleships, without a word, the justification being "This is a time of war."

This led to the rest of the Liberty fleet logging off and going elsewhere, because they decided that taking snubs was pointless; viewing the fight, I saw why. 3/4 cruisers ganking lone fighters.

They decided there was no point joining lost fights, because it isn't possible to have fun. The same applies here. If given the choice between a pointless, lost fight and some balanced ones elsewhere, I might as well jut switch character and ignore them.

I guess the problem is largely with the mindset of a player. If .FACE wouldn't be joining/starting already lost fights, it wouldn't even log in into game. There were less instances then fingers on my both hands when it managed to return to Kappa after long raid. And no instances, when it returned to Kappa without losses. Basicaly, we were getting horrendously annihilated each time we ramming into Outcast/Corsair (and once - SCRA) nova bomber swarm. So what?

Corsairs have so much tactical possibilities to counter those Crete-camping raids it isn't even funny.
EDIT: But I do agree that a stationary Battleship in Alpha and Gamma is a must.
Just, when you put it, move O91 a bit away. It won't be needed to stay that close anymore.

As for the RNC/LNS - I've been there. Many times. only in <strike>few</strike> one instance I've seen LNS smart enough to come through California/Penn jumpholes. And those were only snubs, caps were waiting behind the JGs. I mean, how edit:unwise one should be to not to use such obvious strategic/tactical opportunities he has and try to break through the sealed gates instead. Especially with those JHs being located in deep asteroid fields, with no way turtles moving out of the gates to camp those as well.:wacko:


The above is an example of a mindset different to "ohnoez they're camping Crete/Jumpgates/put your favourite place here we gonna lose I log off".
One of the reasons I bought myself a Legate. Although, a bit too late, i guess...


EDIT2 : Ah yes, one important thing, bout the tech discussion.

Heavy battleship is a Fleet Support battleship.
Light battleship is a narrowly specialized battleship, usually in the anti-battleship role.

It has to do with the amount and arcs of lvl10 turrets, and the amount and arcs of lvl8 turrets. Light battleships can't be used as a Fleet Support, because they often have only 4 available secondaries, 2 of which are shooting sideways. (because I'm always counting 2 flaks for 360 coverage. you can not not to count em in)

Same goes for Heavy slots. Single mortar, or missile, or cerberus - are nearly useless.
Razor requires to be positioned exactly at the center of the mass, otherwise it's usefulness goes down

(See Valor as an extreme example of a badly positioned Heavy slots that make Glaive to guaranteely miss EK'ing unmaneuving bomber sized targets moving with 200m/s across the screen at 800m distance.)

[varoshanin]

i am in BD. i die constantly. i also know all of those people have indie corsairs, so guit lying to yourself.

as for the points govedo made, most are valid, yes. in the end, the 2010 rha could beat the so called 'overpowered' katanas in titans. why can't you? skill, team-play, strategy.

when you die last time? when anyone from ]bd[ die last time? team play? yep its easy when you had dubstep, fran or sad on your wing, and take your titan go to conn let someone in katana from your wing be your sparring partner, and tell me the score... so stop lyng your self... 2010? that is 2 years ago we spoke about 4.86...
no i can't beat OP laggy katana i say that to everyone but you can't deny that so called skilled players in OP fractions...

no Q_Q just a fact..

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[Laerethe]

I guess the problem is largely with the mindset of a player. If .FACE wouldn't be joining/starting already lost fights, it wouldn't even log in into game. There were less instances then fingers on my both hands when it managed to return to Kappa after long raid. And no instances, when it returned to Kappa without losses. Basicaly, we were getting horrendously annihilated each time we ramming into Outcast/Corsair (and once - SCRA) nova bomber swarm. So what?

Corsairs have so much tactical possibilities to counter those Crete-camping raids it isn't even funny.
EDIT: But I do agree that a stationary Battleship in Alpha and Gamma is a must.
Just, when you put it, move O91 a bit away. It won't be needed to stay that close anymore.

As for the RNC/LNS - I've been there. Many times. only in <strike>few</strike> one instance I've seen LNS smart enough to come through California/Penn jumpholes. And those were only snubs, caps were waiting behind the JGs. I mean, how edit:unwise one should be to not to use such obvious strategic/tactical opportunities he has and try to break through the sealed gates instead. Especially with those JHs being located in deep asteroid fields, with no way turtles moving out of the gates to camp those as well.:wacko:
The above is an example of a mindset different to "ohnoez they're camping Crete/Jumpgates/put your favourite place here we gonna lose I log off".
One of the reasons I bought myself a Legate. Although, a bit too late, i guess...

EDIT2 : Ah yes, one important thing, bout the tech discussion.

Heavy battleship is a Fleet Support battleship.
Light battleship is a narrowly specialized battleship, usually in the anti-battleship role.

It has to do with the amount and arcs of lvl10 turrets, and the amount and arcs of lvl8 turrets. Light battleships can't be used as a Fleet Support, because they often have only 4 available secondaries, 2 of which are shooting sideways. (because I'm always counting 2 flaks for 360 coverage. you can not not to count em in)

Same goes for Heavy slots. Single mortar, or missile, or cerberus - are nearly useless.
Razor requires to be positioned exactly at the center of the mass, otherwise it's usefulness goes down

(See Valor as an extreme example of a badly positioned Heavy slots that make Glaive to guaranteely miss EK'ing unmaneuving bomber sized targets moving with 200m/s across the screen at 800m distance.)

In regards to the bold, each to his own :cool:

We do use O91, but then get camped on the other side; if we go through, instadeath, especially for caps when there are multiple Jorm/Vidar.

Yes, LNS often fail to use their tactical advantage, but there were bombers and cruisers at the vanguard afaik on that occasion.

The trouble is, 'x' amount of Legates stand little chance against 6/7 destroyers, when used as fat bombers/support; we need to pull 4/5 cruisers too, and then the fight is simply taken away from the battleships. A couple of bombers can help support, providing the cruisers aren't hitting them with Solaris.

The trouble is organisation and numbers, and most of the time, it just isn't possible. And that's why they log, because they can't do anything.

About the tech discussion, an interesting point; you could use a Solaris cruiser as snub support, with pulses. You could also use an Osiris with razors(for anti gunboats) and pulses(as Aerternus suggested) for anti-gb/cruiser/battleship shield, but this is ineffective when you don't have a Legate as backup.

[dodike]

i am in BD. i die constantly.

Martin, unmount your mine dropper.

[Not Espi]

when you die last time? when anyone from ]bd[ die last time? team play? yep its easy when you had dubstep, fran or sad on your wing, and take your titan go to conn let someone in katana from your wing be your sparring partner, and tell me the score... so stop lyng your self... 2010? that is 2 years ago we spoke about 4.86...
no i can't beat OP laggy katana i say that to everyone but you can't deny that so called skilled players in OP fractions...

no Q_Q just a fact..

lol dude. chillax. i had fran, and amir in the wing back then and i died. i was in a katana. and it was maybe 3 months ago. the game -is- skill based.

i have a titan in conn. i also have a wraith in conn, which is, imo, overall more effective than the katana. i die in that too. wilde use wraiths and chimmies ( aoi were using chimmies ). back in the day, everyone was complaining about sabre being op. now that the sabre got nerfed everyone found another ship to complain about?

who will defend your favourite ship once all the others were nerfed?



also:

Martin, unmount your mine dropper.

[Knjaz]

In regards to the bold, each to his own :cool:

We do use O91, but then get camped on the other side; if we go through, instadeath, especially for caps when there are multiple Jorm/Vidar.

Yes, LNS often fail to use their tactical advantage, but there were bombers and cruisers at the vanguard afaik on that occasion.

The trouble is, 'x' amount of Legates stand little chance against 6/7 destroyers, when used as fat bombers/support; we need to pull 4/5 cruisers too, and then the fight is simply taken away from the battleships. A couple of bombers can help support, providing the cruisers aren't hitting them with Solaris.

The trouble is organisation and numbers, and most of the time, it just isn't possible. And that's why they log, because they can't do anything.

About the tech discussion, an interesting point; you could use a Solaris cruiser as snub support, with pulses. You could also use an Osiris with razors(for anti gunboats) and pulses(as Aerternus suggested) for anti-gb/cruiser/battleship shield, but this is ineffective when you don't have a Legate as backup.

Legate's powercore can support chainfiring 3 basic missiles - at the rate of 1 missile per 7 seconds, and it will be fully covered with your power regen. Granted, such legate will have limited anti-battleship capabilities. Combine that with few cruisers that are picking one bullhead and ripping him apart, and you'll get the picture. Of course, the close cooperation between cruisers and legates is required.

Also, keep in mind (just a theory, not tested yet) that Legate is the only known to me (also, there can be others) battleship with 2 heavy slots placed so good towards the center of the ship. Provides extreme accuracy.

Using pulses against gunboats is, honestly, a joke. Same legate would be way more effective when dealing with the gunboats that come close with his secondaries only (although their slot location is sub optimal, I'd personally exchange 2 primary slots with 2 secondary slots (the ones that are located on "towers" - it would give a Legate +2 well hitting secondaries) And on long ranges you simply will not hit.

Osiris requires a second heavy. A battleship with single heavy and little amount of lvl8's is, as I mentioned before, a sausage with primaries. The "4 pulse 1 mortar" setups that were proposed are so sub-optimal and narrowly specialized that I'm not sure if I even need to comment on that.

Good solaris setup for corsair cruiser might be 8 solaris, 2-3 cerberus, 1 lm, 0-1 missile.
OR - 8 solaris, 2 cerbs, 2 missiles for the probability of instakill. Or even 2 razors 1 pulse 1lm/or 2 cerbs rest up to you.
Or any other. There're alot of "Teamfight only" setups that are working great once put in the right place with right cooperation.


Now, to the most painful part - jumphole camping. The problem i that they, I guess, are camping the JH behind it? So once you jump in you get a valley of cerbs etc.
It is possible to overcome it. In one of our latest raids on face, we have been breaking through the Jumphole to omicron 100, with few ossies (including Sun.Core), a geb and few snubs camping it on the other side. We lost only one battlecruiser in the result, and that was only to our poor cooperation - and that's when sturming a Guard system - although, we had numerical superiority back then. (and yeh, then we decided to go raid SCRA in Delta, but they found us first and novaspammed to death, but it's not about that)

But to pull that out you will require at least few Legates that know what they're doing and are willing to cooperate and share bots... or a bomber spam. It will be very important to position legates at the instadock location, and make them jump at once. A RepShip would come handy as well.


OF course, if it's only legate vs 5 jorms camping a JH, it's kinda different story.

[Laerethe]

Legate's powercore can support chainfiring 3 basic missiles - at the rate of 1 missile per 7 seconds, and it will be fully covered with your power regen. Granted, such legate will have limited anti-battleship capabilities. Combine that with few cruisers that are picking one bullhead and ripping him apart, and you'll get the picture. Of course, the close cooperation between cruisers and legates is required.

Also, keep in mind (just a theory, not tested yet) that Legate is the only known to me (also, there can be others) battleship with 2 heavy slots placed so good towards the center of the ship. Provides extreme accuracy.

Using pulses against gunboats is, honestly, a joke. Same legate would be way more effective when dealing with the gunboats that come close with his secondaries only (although their slot location is sub optimal, I'd personally exchange 2 primary slots with 2 secondary slots (the ones that are located on "towers" - it would give a Legate +2 well hitting secondaries) And on long ranges you simply will not hit.

Osiris requires a second heavy. A battleship with single heavy and little amount of lvl8's is, as I mentioned before, a sausage with primaries. The "4 pulse 1 mortar" setups that were proposed are so sub-optimal and narrowly specialized that I'm not sure if I even need to comment on that.

Good solaris setup for corsair cruiser might be 8 solaris, 2-3 cerberus, 1 lm, 0-1 missile.
OR - 8 solaris, 2 cerbs, 2 missiles for the probability of instakill. Or even 2 razors 1 pulse 1lm/or 2 cerbs rest up to you.
Or any other. There're alot of "Teamfight only" setups that are working great once put in the right place with right cooperation.
Now, to the most painful part - jumphole camping. The problem i that they, I guess, are camping the JH behind it? So once you jump in you get a valley of cerbs etc.
It is possible to overcome it. In one of our latest raids on face, we have been breaking through the Jumphole to omicron 100, with few ossies (including Sun.Core), a geb and few snubs camping it on the other side. We lost only one battlecruiser in the result, and that was only to our poor cooperation - and that's when sturming a Guard system. (and yeh, then we decided to go raid SCRA in Delta, but they found us first and novaspammed to death, but it's not about that)

But to pull that out you will require at least few Legates that know what they're doing and are willing to cooperate and share bots... or a bomber spam. It will be very important to position legates at the instadock location, and make them jump at once. A RepShip would come handy as well.
OF course, if it's only legate vs 5 jorms camping a JH, it's kinda different story.

Thing is, when you go into specialist loadouts, it gets crushed by any concerted effort i.e Hunters and Renegades, or Renegades and Hessians. And it fails when you're against multiple ships; just like bombers increase in efficiency exponentially, so do threshers/bullheads.

Just cause its accurate straight ahead doesn't mean its better than the others; they'll be hitting you from the top and bottom, where you are largest, not directly in front; okay, you can probably still hit them there, but that isn't the point. And with effective turret steering, you can't hit them at all.

The razors were more gunboat oriented, the pulses cruiser/battleship. Sorry if what I wrote didn't reflect that.

Agree with what you say about the Osiris.

Just as you are sometimes effective, you sometimes aren't; I've flown with you twice(only once as a group) and that was to Alpha, and that was a complete mess. Obviously, 6/7 battlecruisers will punch through a few Osiris, especially with the teamwork you guys have.

As soon as we start trying to use Legates, all the fights will return to the fields again; them camping the hole? Run to O41 and start winning again; maybe jump to O11 for an resupply and then come back.

It gets to a point, as we see with FACE, wherein the situation becomes unconquerable by normal means. And such domination just ruins the experience for everyone.

I found that a balanced fleet(A bull, Thresher and two fighters) is much funner than capwhoring(6/7 bulls and a Thresher); just ask Phobos. If you guys pulled a balanced fleet more, and gave warning that you were coming, we'd be able to put up a good fight that was fun for us all.

It has to work both ways.

[Knjaz]

Thing is, when you go into specialist loadouts, it gets crushed by any concerted effort i.e Hunters and Renegades, or Renegades and Hessians. And it fails when you're against multiple ships; just like bombers increase in efficiency exponentially, so do threshers/bullheads.

Not true. It's not an exponential increase, it's the linear increase.
Exponential, is where 6 bombers dealing 4-6 times more damage then 3 bombers, due to overcoming FLAK defense.
6 Bullheads will deal 3 times more damage then 2 bullheads, to a battleship/cruiser. Unless they spam missiles, but I noticed that as of late we're more often getting into close brawl, then missile trolling.

Just cause its accurate straight ahead doesn't mean its better than the others; they'll be hitting you from the top and bottom, where you are largest, not directly in front; okay, you can probably still hit them there, but that isn't the point. And with effective turret steering, you can't hit them at all.

The razors were more gunboat oriented, the pulses cruiser/battleship. Sorry if what I wrote didn't reflect that.

Well, use secondaries when they're under you. I've noticed secondaries are very good against gunboats. And once you put a solaris cruiser with some support on the tail of the gunboat, even Vendetta|RR goes down after some time. ;)

Just as you are sometimes effective, you sometimes aren't; I've flown with you twice(only once as a group) and that was to Alpha, and that was a complete mess. Obviously, 6/7 battlecruisers will punch through a few Osiris, especially with the teamwork you guys have.

It gets to a point, as we see with FACE, wherein the situation becomes unconquerable by normal means. And such domination just ruins the experience for everyone.

I found that a balanced fleet(A bull, Thresher and two fighters) is much funner than capwhoring(6/7 bulls and a Thresher); just ask Phobos. If you guys pulled a balanced fleet more, and gave warning that you were coming, we'd be able to put up a good fight that was fun for us all.

Novaspam makes us die. Die Horribly. Without any possible "standart" counter. We're working on it, without dropping the agenda of the faction - i.e. maxed amount of BH/Threshies. That's why you saw Phobos teamed with few fighters. We came up with something, but didn't have time to field it, yet.

But another thing with caps, is that with almost zero training, but good cooperation you can do way more, then with fighters. That's another reason why we love capital fights so much - even completely new guys can be very effective on the field after 20-40 mins of training. Unachievable in fighters.

As for warnings, well, usual idea is to kill as much as possible before novaspam comes in and kills us all. When Gamma was active, we even had to deploy guerilla luring tactics to split hostile forces, that many corsairs, surprisingly, fell for - otherwise we didn't have a single chance.
But it's indeed possible, sometimes. I can discuss that with guys.

As soon as we start trying to use Legates, all the fights will return to the fields again; them camping the hole? Run to O41 and start winning again; maybe jump to O11 for an resupply and then come back.

Before commenting on that I'd like to see how it turns out on the field, first. Too bad I missed out Hessian raid yesterday.
For example, they don't quite manage to pull that out in the Rheinland/Omega 11 against |2te|, due to some reason. Would be interesting to see the difference. (although there's indeed no Omega 41, fully covered with asteroids on that battlefield)

[Laerethe]

Not true. It's not an exponential increase, it's the linear increase.
Exponential, is where 6 bombers dealing 4-6 times more damage then 3 bombers, due to overcoming FLAK defense.
6 Bullheads will deal 3 times more damage then 2 bullheads, to a battleship/cruiser. Unless they spam missiles, but I noticed that as of late we're more often getting into close brawl, then missile trolling.


Well, use secondaries when they're under you. I've noticed secondaries are very good against gunboats. And once you put a solaris cruiser with some support on the tail of the gunboat, even Vendetta|RR goes down after some time. ;)



Novaspam makes us die. Die Horribly. Without any possible "standart" counter. We're working on it, without dropping the agenda of the faction - i.e. maxed amount of BH/Threshies. That's why you saw Phobos teamed with few fighters. We came up with something, but didn't have time to field it, yet.

But another thing with caps, is that with almost zero training, but good cooperation you can do way more, then with fighters. That's another reason why we love capital fights so much - even completely new guys can be very effective on the field after 20-40 mins of training. Unachievable in fighters.

As for warnings, well, usual idea is to kill as much as possible before novaspam comes in and kills us all. When Gamma was active, we even had to deploy guerilla luring tactics to split hostile forces, that many corsairs, surprisingly, fell for - otherwise we didn't have a single chance.
But it's indeed possible, sometimes. I can discuss that with guys.



Before commenting on that I'd like to see how it turns out on the field, first. Too bad I missed out Hessian raid yesterday.
For example, they don't quite manage to pull that out in the Rheinland/Omega 11 against |2te|, due to some reason. Would be interesting to see the difference. (although there's indeed no Omega 41, fully covered with asteroids on that battlefield)

Still, the damage is that of 3 or so Osiris with more agility and less chance to evade. Its a little exponential because fire can be avoided from 1/2 battleships, but not from 4/5 cruisers.

Turret steering means that secondaries don't hit if they are even 500/600m away; its more noticable on transport turrets, but cruiser basics and battleship secondaries suffer too.

Yes, novaspam makes you die, but there weren't many bombers on that occasion, as far as I could see. If you are going to capspam, I don't think you can really complain that a bunch of bombers get pulled to try and counter you.

They can be effective, but rarely against skilled snubs. Against other caps, definitely.

How can you find it fun to gank one or two guys and not get a proper fight? Its much more fun to get a proper fight then gank a couple of snubs or gunboats, at least in my experience.

Exactly.

[leonidos]

Is these possible to give some modification in design to legate so that it can move through astoroids?

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