Phoenix - (\^/)

[RedEclipse]

An little bit of update.

Members roster(links) was repaired due new board, and changed to show our current active/semi-active members in faction.

Freeport 7 goal was removed as everything what we've own in Sigma-17 was destroyed. We're moved to Zeta as previously planned.

[Veygaar]

Best of luck to you fellas!

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Veygaar for Admin Moderator 2013!!!

[Gentlefood]

So, what's the story behind the RM BS that you guys fly? And where does all of this 'vast knowledge of the Rheinland Bismark class' come from?

[RedEclipse]

Thanks, Veygaar

Well, that's not a Vega feedback thread. But there is no any. So I'll answer your questions here.

This battleship was a wreck before me in Omicron-85(there is no more, since we've moved wreckage and rebuilt it). Lately known as Blitzkrieg, was captured by GMG in 80-year war. Renamed to Namura and sent to explore deeper Omicron sectors, thus was neutralized in 85 by Outcast forces.

And then appears me, but actually I've started this RP project in Omicroners... Eh, about a year ago. The vast of knowledge we've got from GMG, they're shared this information with us.

[Gentlefood]

This battleship was a wreck before me in Omicron-85(there is no more, since we've moved wreckage and rebuilt it). Lately known as Blitzkrieg, was captured by GMG in 80-year war. Renamed to Namura and sent to explore deeper Omicron sectors, thus was neutralized in 85 by Outcast forces.

And then appears me, but actually I've started this RP project in Omicroners... Eh, about a year ago. The vast of knowledge we've got from GMG, they're shared this information with us.

Not to start punching holes in this. But I suppose I shall.

The GMG recovered two Bismark class battleships from the wreckage of Sigma-13. Of the two ships they were merely the husks of their former glory. These heavily battle-scarred ships were merely the mostly intact shells of the Bismark class. The GMG had to completely redo the interior of the ship, including weapon systems, propulsion, the works. That means the ship is merely Rheinlandic in appearance, and has no actual Rheinland parts.

Now that means two things. One, the GMG don't know the ship from top to bottom. They just know where the hull plates go and can guess at how some of the rooms were divided. Explosive gas pockets don't do nice things to a ship, especially not its soft internals once its been breached. And Two, that the ship the GMG fly is not the Bismark class, but a Bismark hull.

Now. Lets take your story. This Bismark Hull goes into the 80 years war, and while suffering combat damage is eventually destroyed with the rest of the Rheinland fleet at the end of the 80 years war. This event took place a couple hundred years ago. Without even taking in age to consideration, the extremely hostile environment it was subject to would cause a very high level of degradation to the ship itself. When the GMG recovered it and the other mostly salvageable wreck, it would have been a mess.

Now fast forward, the GMG have successful refitted the ship, however it is no longer of the Bismark Class nor design, but a Bismark hull with GMG tech. It is sent into a combat operation against the Outcasts, however it is horribly damaged and now crippled for the second time in a hostile environment.

Fast forward again, you've somehow managed to recover the wreck of a wreck. Where are you getting the parts? Do you expect the Rheinland government to be sympathetic if they -ever- see you with it? So lets pretend you don't have access to parts, nor do you really have the Bismark designs, but only what the GMG think is the correct way of putting things. You have a battered wreck of a ship that was once a military vessel. You have little to no way of repairing it, and no way of getting replacement parts. You have completely destroyed any chances of political/economic relationships with Rheinland by sporting what is more or less a 'War Trophy'. I'm just failing to see why you would even want this thing other than novelty. And if you think novelty is worth risking a relationship with a house, then I'd say you're playing a very risky game.

If you have links to the roleplay where you acquire the battleship from the outcast controlled nebula, and where the GMG give you the information on the ship I'd be very interested in it.

P.S. Please don't say you're going to get the parts from Sigma-13, as that's going to be cleaned up in .87, not even counting that all of the important/functioning tech would have long been scavenged twenty times over by GMG/ALG. And anything semi-functioning would have been taken by the Junkers.

Also, I'm not saying I'm opposed to you having the ship or the roleplay involved in it. But I find the fact that you think you have a fully intact, fully operational, perfect copy of the Rheinland Bismark Battleship a bit unsubstantiated. In addition to the fact that you think you have 'vast stores of knowledge' about the class itself.

[RedEclipse]

Firstly, GMG captured three Rheinland battleships. Namura(Vega), Daishouri and Ayakashi.

At the apex of the 80-years war, the Gas Miners Guild concocted a bold operation to commandeer as many Rheinland warships as possible without compromising their systems or hull integrity. The effect of the nebula on the ill-attuned battleship sensors along with literally impossible visual readings essentially cloaked GMG raiders, allowing for many opportunities to approach Rheinland battleships completely undetected. Commandeering a warship turned out to be a far more daunting task than originally expected. Warship hulls buckled under unfortunate critical hits by GMG bomber wings, others repelled the attackers, and the boarding teams were not always successful. In the end, the GMG took too many losses and called off the operation. Only three battleships were captured.

Also

For many years the warships remained idle in the Sigma-13 region of the Crow Nebula, as not only did the GMG have to rebuild itself and pay "reparation" taxes to Kusari for their debt, but they also had to learn the foreign technology in order to rebuild the warships' engines and other damaged systems. Fortunately, the GMG had a plentiful source of salvageable parts in the Yanagi cloud, and they extracted any needed parts long before any thought of having the field cleaned up was considered. As the work on the engines neared completion, the GMGs exploration wings were reinstated. Their first directive was to find a secure location outside of the Crow Nebula where the three vessels could be kept hidden until fully operational.

Yeah, GMG don't know blueprints of these battleships from top to bottom, but they've recorded data of scanning three(!) Rheinland battleships. These ships were captured without a destruction of vessels - but indeed they're was scratched. Yes, they're was retrofitted with their technology. They're learned how it's works and replaced to their own made details; that's means GMG have understanding how Bismark class battleship works, but they're adapted it to their own needs.

Sigma-13 do nothing against disabled ships, it's was out explosive gas pockets; then there wouldn't any of GMG Rheinland battleships. I'll repeat once more, these battleships was disabled with low losses, GMG do know how Bismarks works. Of course they hadn't any reason to use Rheinland parts, it's was refitted with their technology.

Again... GMG get a big loss with this operation, but captured ships wasn't in horrible shape. Why would you judge metal conditions, do you know the alloys which is used with construction of Bismarks class battleships? Also you give a red light on already existing SRP, two GMG Rhienland battleships, one as player ship, another as NPC base? Freelancer it's a future, many things have been changed. Judge condition of alloys on RL basis is already funny thing. Also need to remind you there is no oxygen in space or rain.

And again. GMG ain't creating new class battleships, they're studied, researched and scanned Bismark class ships. They're got the understanding how it's works and produced a new details by their own industry.

Why would we asking someone to get already completed parts for such ship? It's a secret project. We never will contact any government, I hope you do understand the reason. Our group have long standing even before Phoenix establishment. I really recommend to read(or read again) faction information. We're in RP faction followers of the Omicroners, and Omicroners follower of Zoners Trading Consortium. For the years we are produced ships in Omicron-74, include Nephilim, lately known as Jinkusu. We know how to build such ships. For now we haven't wreck, but a Rheiland battleship which was rebuilt with Zoner style, within beautiful gardens inside and with latest Zoner technology.

About RP consequences, let leave it to us, that's our business. And did I already mentioned I've started this RP in the Omicroners, which was alike Zoner Militia? Many things have been changed since I start to develop this project. We're not scared to make worse our relationship with Rheinland, because:
1. RFP opened embargo at us.
2. Rheinland ship was spotted in destruction of Freeport 7 Reconstruction Site. Burton tried to contact with the government, but with respond "take your mouth kid", without any real respond. So in RP Phoenix counted Rheinland as government-murder of civilian people.

"Also, I'm not saying I'm opposed to you having the ship or the roleplay involved in it. But I find the fact that you think you have a fully intact, fully operational, perfect copy of the Rheinland Bismark Battleship a bit unsubstantiated. In addition to the fact that you think you have 'vast stores of knowledge' about the class itself. "
Oh, are you letting me to have a unique ship?! Actually, in my imagination the ship got Nephilim/BW textures.

Some links:
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=69867
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=76075
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=76436
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=80792
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=82212
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=88707

Need to mention, RP still doesn't finished.

P.S. Yeah, bbcodes will be fixed.

[EisenSeele]

So let me get this straight. You've got yourselves a ship based on the hulk of a centuries old obsolete ship at best. So, the GMG has databanks on what they could find and reverse engineer - which is a very difficult and rarely successful process at best, given that there are a huge wealth of captured and wrecked Rheinland/Kusari/Gallic/Libertonian/Bretonian/Corsair/Outcast ships everywhere for enemies of whatever faction interests you to find, with a profound lack of actual viable examples of said reverse engineering happening.

In the end, you've got yourself what is either basically just a Zoner battleship in the hull plating of a Rheinland BS, or an incredibly obsolete Rheinland battleship with more modern Zoner weapons. Either way, you're better off with a Zoner battleship than with a Rheinland one - for any purpose other than forcing Rheinland to become hostile to you for possessing what appears to be a Rheinland battleship (functional or not).

You say that you don't care about diplomacy from Rheinland because some indie attacked you - and your angry tirade at the actual official faction of Rheinland resulted in a "we really can't do much about our indies being ponces" thing. From an RP perspective, fair enough. From a player standpoint, that's not really very cool at all. From an RP standpoint, you taking one of our hulls and claiming it for your own appears to have a tiny bit of justification (unless you're pretending that this is an actual modern Rheinland BS, to which I'll have to say you're silly) - but from a player perspective, we weren't consulted and we're not very happy about someone messing around with our ships without consulting us - especially given that you gents basically told us to piss off before.

I can tell you where this can go from here in both a player and a character perspective.

As players, if you don't consult us beforehand about using our tech, we'll be very unhappy with you. It's unfortunate, but we're also humans and prone to silly grudges - and while we won't be making alts to make your day as crappy as possible (apparently some do that sort of thing), it'll mean that trying to do anything with us will become that much more difficult - and contribute to the bad blood within the community.

As characters, I can almost guaranty you that if you fly ANYWHERE with that, Rheinland WILL know sooner or later. You've seen how annoying the RFP response was to your disrespectful communiques to us (which is just a passive thing that the RFP is known and loved for) accusing us of murdering your civilians (again, we really can't do much to control our Indies, and it's poor form for you to consider the conduct of indies to reflect on an official faction). I can honestly tell you that making us hostile to you won't be very fun - especially since the BDM (who will be sent first to repossess the classified tech and ship first) doesn't do anything half way - and given that if the BDM fails, the rank and file [RM] and RNC will be the next to be called in.

All in all, it's not going to be worth the trouble of you having your vanity project continue the way it is unless you initiate a dialogue with the Rheinland lawfuls on both a character and player level so that we can settle on a happy medium regarding this, especially if you're planning on going official - or you scrap the project.

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FEEDBACK

[RedEclipse]

Well, we can argue here for a long time about the condition of wreckage, but we've RP it as it's was okay for the reconstruction, check the first link.

The idea comes to me in Omicroners because we was in open conflict with the Corsairs, they're hunted us, so we're was in good position in RP to get that wreckage. Rh bs really looks like a battleship is which most powerful ship ever in RP, so question of rebuilding it was alike "emotional ascent" for fellow Omicroners, like we do have a real warship. Because we still RP them as Colony ships, now homeships. All what we had and have is Hyperion, previously known as Persephone. But that's not a matter for now, since Omicorners was disbanded against our will. I decide not to disband my RP and finish it. And let admins to judge, it's worthfully or not.

Yeah in some day somewhere you will meet this ship, if it's will be approved by admin team. But it's question of RP. And yeah, before to start this project(or after one month of developing it) I contacted with leader of [RM], he's gave a green light on it "okay". Although doesn't sure about BDM, I tried to contacting you too, but I doesn't remember it was done or not.

About Freeport 7, I still don't know why they're put an embargo at us. because of started reconstruction? That's hilarious. Really, I think it's business of government or Military about outer policy.

At least you had time to answer me here about Freeport 7, thanks. Your explanations could be far enough in RP about situation with RAV, silence wasn't best choose.

[Gentlefood]

About Freeport 7, I still don't know why they're put an embargo at us. because of started reconstruction? That's hilarious. Really, I think it's business of government or Military about outer policy.

At least you had time to answer me here about Freeport 7, thanks. Your explanations could be far enough in RP about situation with RAV, silence wasn't best choose.

RM nor BDM have anything to do with RAV, they're an indie group that felt for whatever reason to go off and destroy your base. It would be the same thing if an indie group of KNF decided to go blow up your base, KNF would not be responsible for their actions as they can't do much more than yell at them.

As for the embargo I'm fairly certain it came from the fact that you opened up your first comm thread to Rheinland with the accusations that Rheinland was full and run by murders. Not the most tactful choice yes?

I also don't think you really understand the difference of being -embargoed- by a house and being -hunted down- by a house. Which I can assure you is a very big difference.

[RedEclipse]

Well, you was able to tell us that in RP. As player I clearly understand this situation, even better - that's was a buff for our faction activity, and we're moved out from boring 17. That's not because I don't like Rheinland(actually vise versa), just how in RP our group would know that our bases was destroyed by "indies"? A little answer for your side was able to solve this problem on the roots.

Eh, please, look at dates of putted embargo and message from Burton?
RFP answer in FP7 RS thread - 09-14-2012 11:20 AM
Burton about of it's destruction - 10-09-2012 01:04 PM

I clearly understand that embargo and combat actions against a little Zoner group is kinda different things, thank you for explanation. But, what the reason of that reaction from RFP? We're called "murders" you guys only after destruction of base. RFP put on us embargo about month before. Our first communication to you was that FP7 RS thread, not that unpleasant message.