Well, Your Level 80 and rich.........

[Chucc]

I think he is referring to me. The cruisers are used for Deep Space Recovery. Read the RP, its all there, you just have to click more times.

---

Looking into returning, maybe.

[Geisha_Maiko]

Greetings.

*bows slightly*

I thank everyone that posted.
I got some good insights and feedback.

I now feel that this thread has taken many turns away from the orginal " Using OOC knowledge into IC play ''.....to.......How Taxing should be RP......How much is too much......How pirates should and should not be,etc,etc.

Which, all are probally good points to themseves.....but i personally feel that this thread is now 5 pages thick and might get moved to the Flood Section.

I made my side known and read the feedback of others.

Again, thank you for your time.

*bows*

---

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[Knucklehead]

The other day I was flying my newest character on the extended Niobium/Diamonds run and had just unloaded my Humpback at Kyushu. Prior to docking on the planet, my level was at 29 and jumped up to 31 when I had unloaded the cargo. On the way in I had noticed a certain gunboat sitting just outside the planet's range. I figured he'd give me a little leeway as he probably had noticed I'd just barely gotten to 31, and was in a ship that had no chance against his. No such luck. As soon as I approached the tradelane, he disrupted it. Naturally, I'm in no hurry to stick around, so a thruster-speed chase ensued. As I'm getting close to dead, he finally demands two million from me (which, even if I had that much, would have dropped me back back to 29, but that's another thing to consider.) Before I could fully explain this to him, I'm watching my hold full of consumer goods scatter across space. (I also had a PROMETHEUS, but that's not the focus here.) Afterward, he explained that he would have demanded less, but I had made him work for it.

My biggest problem with the situation is the fact that I had just broken level 30, and he had used this as an excuse to attack. I didn't even get a chance to really roleplay the situation, what with the whole dodging blazing death coming at me thing.

Sorry if this turned into a rant, but I just felt I needed to get a bit of frustration out of the way, and this seemed like a situation somewhat related to the original issue. I have a few ideas floating around in my head, but those are for another time and thread.

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It's official, I have too few ships now...

[13CentKiller]

Ask any Blood Dragon on his opinion of the Corsairs :)

Do you traders have ANY idea how difficult it is to pirate people? Most of my time is spent jacking someone succesfully, then running the heck away from the PC/NPC contingent that shows up, due to the fact that my craft has a turning circle of about 10984702974211K, this usually ends up with me in an escape canister. If you're a trader flying through house systems, you can usually find backup from NPC's. As a pirate, not only do you have to worry about the next Navy battleship to show up, there are other pirate factions who hate you as well.

Honestly, I remember my classic example of a trader hauling 5000 Diamonds out of New Berlin, earning _quite_ a bit of cash, being stopped by me, then running for JH with //"Soz!!! Doing runzors now!!". And you people wonder why we dont trust trading PC's further than we could throw their 7000 tonne hunk of junk. Your trading ways might be the reason pirates lose patience very, very quickly and skip to shooting the cargo compartments off your trains. We may not get the tax, but 108 diamonds sell for 71,000 at my home bases, more than enough to cover the $4000 I spend firing Cruise Disruptors at you lot.

Traders: Think about how pirates survive in the game.
Pirates: Think of how much money the trader will make when they ignore you.. and make an example of them.

Edit: I tax higher if you head through Chugoku or Hokkaido. Get spotted in Tau-63, and you're a dead trader monkey.

I agree 110%

When I tax, I say, "Halt (name here) 2 or 3 million(depending on my mood) for the trading through Dragon and Dragon affiliated territory. 10 seconds" I begin a trade request, with my disruptors at the ready, count the zero's and go.

Simple as that. Money given, trader safe, RP done...Can't get any better then that ;)

@Knucklehead

That may have been me, although i do not usually hang outside the planet. But I do recognize the "it gets cheaper if you cooperate" part of it. Never the less, are we all supposed to know that you just broke level 30? And if the taxed amount was a problem, then I guess I would have had to use the ooRP way of taxing, which is monitoring the traders level, which is the thing that started this discussion. Hunting and taxing is my job, and I'm good at it, I enjoy a good chase too. Sorry for the inconvenience I suppose. Its how the game is played. And if your not prepared for the unexpected, or to get taxed all together, I suggest you find a different way to make credits.

Cheers :cool:

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"Three o'clock is always too late or too early for anything you want to do."

[Reverend Del]

Using the level indicator to judge tax is metagaming, simple as that, but there are a number of ingame ways to gain the same information.

Ezample:

"Trader, kill your engines and switch to local comms, you have 10 seconds."

"Ok, Ok standing by, what's the tax?"

"I'm gonna scan your vessel and find out."

Trader scans vessel, gets readout, figures max profit per run on hold size. (Presuming the Traders hauling 1K profit per unit commodities, he doesn't think this trader's stupid) [The math's simple]

[OOC: the trader's flying a humpback, he's level 35, he's got just over 200 cargo space, the max profit he can make in any one run is 200k, taxing him 2mil is pointless he hasn't got it, his whole ship isn't worth that, he can't pay it]

"150k" says the pirate

using in game information the pirate has garnered enough information to make a reasonable tax, it's rendered the last trade run pointless, because the pirate now has the profits of that in his hold, but it hasn't set the trader back so far that he feels demoralised with the trading lark.


Taxing bigger transports the game gets a bit tougher, the pirate must then consider how much the cargo cost and how much it will cost the trader to replace it, there's no point taxing an ADV train pilot 4mil per run, his entire cargo, plus bots/bats isn't gonna cost him that much, it's cheaper for him to go splodey than pay. From an Rp point of view Interspace has got his ship insured he's out of pocket by two mil, not four. Better all round. Greedy pirate gets nothing.

The level in the corner means nothing and shouldn't be used for anything other than the greater than Lvl 30 rule for initiating PvP. It's not hard to figure out a reasonable tax using the resources you have available to you.

I thank you for you time.

---

Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.

[Xoria]

From an Rp point of view Interspace has got his ship insured he's out of pocket by two mil, not four.

So an insurance company is going to cough up 110 million credits to replace an Advanced Train that a Trader had destroyed by refusing to pay a pirate 4 million credits?

Nuts.

No insurance company in this galaxy or any other would ever write a policy allowing any such thing. If they did in Sirius, they'd be insolvent inside of a week due to all the traders who get themselves blown up.

In real game terms, if an Adv Train is destroyed you lose the cargo, equipment, and bots and bats that aren't nailed down...so maybe a couple to a few million lost.

In roleplay terms, you lose a 110 million credit ship, and have to fill out a mountain of paperwork. Additionally, buying a 100 million credit transport isn't like buying a used car. In other words, you couldn't possibly lose one, make it back to base, and launch with another one on the same route within 60 seconds.

Plus, why would any insurance carrier continue to write a policy to a pilot who keeps having 110 million credit ships destroyed? Auto insurance companies often drop people's coverage over a few thousand in damages. 110 million credits in insurance claims means you will NEVER be issued a policy by anyone ever again because you are too great a risk! This is a flatly indisputable reality of business.

One of my hobbies is studying organized crime so I have more than just a passing knowledge about this sort of thing. Major criminal enterprises don't just randomly target people. They do their homework. Information critical to determining whether or not a particular entity is a good target for robbing in some way is part of the criminals' activities. Poor people aren't targeted by kidnappers, con artists, extortionists, blackmailers, and serious thieves, are they? No, the rich are targeted because the criminals know who the rich are from doing their homework. In Freelancer, all of that real world data is distilled down into one single rank number. Nobody can help it that this is the way the game designers chose to do it, but this is the way it is. It isn't out of roleplay for a pirate to use that data, because that data tells the pirate in a simple way the very thing that real pirates would find out before choosing a target. In the real world criminals can search public records, case locations, pose as a customer or serviceman and do many other things to gather intel about a target. Do you think the pirates in the South China seas just aimlessly roam around robbing whatever boat they happen to bump into? Of course they don't. The serious pirates hunt the super freighters. It would be OUT of roleplay for pirates in Sirius to do otherwise as well, and it is OUT of roleplay for pirates to ignore the only piece of information that tells them anything useful about their target.

Do you somehow think that extortionists, blackmailers, con artists, and thieves IGNORE how rich someone is when they decide how much to steal? Of course not. That is the primary determinant of the size of their demands. Why should pirates in Freelancer operate any differently than thieves in the real world? Roleplay doesn't employ some sort of outlandish and unrealistic "in the game world only" model of criminal behavior.

Some of you call it metagaming if a pirate makes demands based on your treasury, as indicated by your rank. I call it metagaming when a trader refuses to pay more than the purchase cost of his cargo because he knows in the game's terms that is all the credits he stands to lose by being destroyed. It is downright hypocritical to answer what you erroneously call a "non-RP" demand with a non-RP reliance on the game's mechanics in order to save you money.

If you really want to talk serious roleplaying, then any demand up to but not exceeding the replacement cost of the ship is entirely reasonable. Pirates don't do that, because we recognize that we shouldn't "kill the goose that laid the golden egg". Pirates don't want to bankrupt traders in just a couple hits. It's much more fun to get to pirate the same target multiple times. Pirates are entirely reasonable to tax based on profits, not cost. That is the way governments tax corporations, remember. Cost is irrelevant; profits are the only number that matters.


When you traders base your taxing ceiling on the cost of your lost cargo / equipment, YOU are the one who is metagaming and is OUT of role-play, NOT the pirate!

---

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[RParade]

A tax is given for protection, not some lazy piece of s*** who doesn't want to do crap to get money except be lazy.

Woah, woah..

We're talking about pirates, not bloody Robin Hood. A tax is whatever he says it is, 'cause he's threatening your life, you know?

.. If I tax someone nearby Mactan base in Magellan as my Hacker, and then he flies to Freeport 4 and gets taxed/destroyed by a Rogue or Outcast ally, then it isn't my problem.:P


Alot of traders blow right by hostile bases, fly into hostile systems, and alot of your traderoutes even require detouring into Guard systems.. Any sort of space travel is going to be dangerous, especially when you're flying a train that has millions of credits worth in goods onboard..

As for dying or paying. Well, I've paid the SA 25 million credits before to let me leave New York without conflict, and I hadn't done anything wrong other than enter the system as Lane Hacker. The character was new and hadn't even really committed any crimes yet, even. This is a roleplay server, it doesn't matter how much you're being taxed - when that ship explodes, roleplay-wise it's your character's life you've just lost. Sure, sometimes you might survive and be tractored by an ally, but remember that would rarely happen.

I don't think traders should be forced to pay absurd taxes, but honestly in my experiences more traders choose suicide than those who don't. Even when I ask for a small sum like 500k (which I do often) I get traders who run until they're dead, even when it's painfully obvious to everyone involved that escape is impossible.

It takes alot more effort to track and chase traders than it does to trade, and our profit margins aren't nearly as nice as yours generally.

Oh, and I don't use levels to determine how much I'll tax. I use cargohold size:

1000 units or less - 250K-750k, depending on the commodity's value
1000 to 2000 - 1 million
Anything above 2000 - 1.5-2 million

I don't think that's so unreasonable. What I will do however is tax you extra if you sneak by me and I've noticed you. If I tax you once in Magellan and then the next three times you manage to evade me on your route (but I see you and count the times you've entered the system) I will ask for extra. In many cases, you're being taxed not because the evil pirate wants to gain easy credits off of you, but rather because you've invaded his territory and he wants you gone (you'd think some of you would be smart enough to simply prolong your routes by a system or so just to avoid being taxed - not all of us actively pursue or intercept you, some of us have a static patrol zone that we stick too and you run into us, not the other way around).

[Reverend Del]

So an insurance company is going to cough up 110 million credits to replace an Advanced Train that a Trader had destroyed by refusing to pay a pirate 4 million credits?

When you put it that way, you're right. I retract that part of the post, I shan't edit it. I shall just admit my error.

Besides my facts were in error, Interspace insures the cargo not the carrier.

So I stand corrected.



I do feel that a pirate should not mention the character level , it is metagaming to directly refer to it, perhaps saying

"We've done our research we know you've got a fair few credits on that ship and we want our slice."

I'm sure you'd agree, that's better than just saying, "oh you're level 80 give me 10 mil"

I will also admit that a trader should consider the value of his transport when considering how much out of pocket he is, again I was in error.

We advanced train pilots should count our lucky stars we only get taxed 2% of the value of our ships let alone our cargo.

Both sides need to make pirating more interesting, dammit it's my only break in an otherwise tedious cycle. Trading is about the acquisition of money only. We don't seem to talk to each other much if we see each other, and we don't stop to get a drink and chew the fat at bases, like I know real truckers do. Pirates are a breath of fresh air, and between pirates not wanting to RP taxing traders, and traders just getting themselves blown up to avoid paying any tax unfair or not, that air is becoming stale. I for one am gonna start haggling with any pirate that'll take the time to RP with me, and traders expect a small conversation when I see you in system.

Thank you for your time.

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Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.

[gezza999]

Just to clear something up... The NovaPG ask for 2million, for rites of passage, not tax, you'll need to pay to be allowed through Dragon space. Of course, I would love to be able to type at FTL speed, unfortunatly, I don't have that ability, and, I'm sure my keyboard would be tattered by that time. Second, you get traders... " I'd rather die than pay a pirate scum like yourself!" * Runs and docks at nearest base *, you sign some kind of treaty, agreeing that you'll stop and pay each time, then I'll sign a treaty agreeing to type a full explanation as to why I want that money, in RP. However, until then, it'll stick at " Halt, Pay two mill, for rites of passage, five seconds left", but, of course, that'll never happen anyway, so..

And, need I say, thinking only of the cost of your cargo is rather silly, you've got to remember, if you die, you'll respawn at your last base, have to rebuy the cargo, fly all the way back to your destination, possibly getting stopped by the same person again. You can make 10million per run, 15million maybe, is two million REALLY a big chunk out of that? Hmmmm? We've only blown up one guy while he was actually paying, and that was by accident, we gave him a full week of free trading for that little cock-up...

I don't agree with using the level system to tax more is right... but, if I see a Transport pilot, of course I tax him less, we leave most people under level 40. If you can't afford it, fine, drop a little cargo, then we'll spare you.


It happen just the other day. We are pirating outside Kyoto, we stop a trader, he starts saying that he'll pay, then he crash docks, minutes later, we get re-engaged by a gunboat, baring the same name, haggling isn't an option with me, you pay, or you die, keep it simple.

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This is my signature.

[ScornStar]

Interesting thread. It doesnt really effect me now but may one day, as I dont not pirate or trade professionally.

It also seems to me that there are all kinds of crooks out there and some are smart and do their homework and some are.... well short sighted. I like that there are all kinds. There are some who would rather die for their principals and some who see death as the ultimate loss. I say let humans do what humans do, other wise we take the human element from the RP and then its not RP. I would agree with the many who say your "level" should not be mentioned as it is just a game mechanic, but I agree with who ever that was that compared it to a credit rateing, which is not always accurate to how much is in your wallet but it helps.

But to be clear we need scum, traders, pirates, common thieves, we need all kinds out there to get that feeling of humaniy in space. If there are to many scum out there and travel gets to dangerous exspect more cap ship and bigger escorts, if its something the traders are comfortable with, exspect Pirates to florish, and if the scum gives the pirates a bad name or attracts to much of the wrong attention exspect the pirates to police their own ranks and if they dont then they deserve the logical repercussions. I believe organizations like the mafia/triad may quite probably make examples out of the two bit criminals that threaten their more profitable rackets, by attracting to much legal noise. Anyway just some thoughts to kick around.

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