Zoners

[Anaximander]

Hi Timmy. Your premise is faulty, at least for me.

The problem is not that Zoners couldn't use a fleet since they are colonists, the problem is that it is highly unlikely that anyone (including Rheinland and other lawful Houses) could allow Zoners to consolidate military power like that; seeing that militaristic/strategic power is a zero-sum game.

It is pretty straightforward, when Zoners start to churn out warships, Rheinland, the Corsairs and others have to step up their production to maintain the same balance of power. That's not something an empire of any kind wants, we know from real life how arms race can break the back of economies. It's not something any person in a position of responsibility within the aforementioned factions could sit idle by either, a response is required.

Not only that, when Zoners arm themselves to this extent they start to become a security issue for other powers in the region. It is pretty much common sense that you aren't as worried about your neighbor with a pointy stick, as you are about your neighbor with a loaded gun, that's what Vanilla Zoners are all about by the way. Again, that is another unwanted headache for the local powers.

To put it simply the warship fleets conflicts heavily with the neutrality stated in the lore. Zoners are supposed to rely on diplomacy, they rely on filling a niche and not stepping on anyones toes (that's the cool Vanilla Zoners that made a lot of sense and was a very interesting and tricky faction), but that doesn't add up with the leviathan Disco devs transformed them into. By having caps they de facto step on other people's toes, there's no way around it. Military power politics is extremely cynical; no matter how many "lol I'm neutral, dun shoot" Zoners come up with, local powers can simply not run that risk if they are in any way supposed to be responsible towards their population and their House. The caps are a mistake from the time when Disco was a glorified shippack, but they wreck the Vanilla lore and no sensible update to lore has been put forth. By sensible I mean lore that covers the surge in tech know-how and production capabilities in mere 20 years, and covers the consequences of Zoners arming themselves to this extreme level - again I'm not opposed to that; Zoner lore could be updated to reflect their presence in game, Trent could have become a Zoner after the SP campaign and have brought in a bunch of investments and whatnot, they could be a regional power block for all I care, as long as things somehow add up better than what they do currently.

Nothing comes for free in this world, and it would have consequences for anybody arming themselves and forming warship fleets.

Then there's the issue of population and the discrepancy between Vanilla Zoners production capabilities and Disco Zoners ditto 20 years later. Sure, you can say other factions are as low on resources, and shouldn't have caps either (which is pretty irrelevant in a discussion about Zoners), but at least they are on steady ground when it comes to diplomacy - the factions in question are unlawful and do not give 2 cents about how governments and other local powers perceive them and their intentions; whereas such considerations are (or should be) at the very core of Zonerdom - their very survival hinges on it, if the few parts of definitive lore we do have are to be believed.

[Champ]

Moved, and begrudgingly, not locked.

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[Remilia Scarlet]

In before there were many people who took the RP seriously and, understanding that caps are totally OORP things for the player to fly, preferred to use the snubs of sorts and other small crafts because it was more immersive and inRP justified. However the times have changed and now people begin to take the cap existence seriously thinking that caps going pop anywhere around daily is as logical as snubs doing so. Well, it's not. Capship existence was a thorn in the eye before, but was ok since most of the server was trying to avoid using them much for the reason, but now they are a real problem since no one is using RP logic and, well, any other sorts of logics anymore. Since it's just about pewing each others now it's logical that many players are rushing into power trading, haxing, etc cash to buy the biggest ship around.

That's the root of the problem. Players with the above mentioned issues in mind just rush for Zoners because they can have the biggest ship and be sort of neutral to many people and wide ZOI without taking any RP logic into consideration. Hence they are mostly not even reading the lore and infocards of the faction prior to starting a flaming discussions on forums about the zoner npc faction when some player starts a topic after being tired off the cap crap idiocy.

And I'll keep saying it everywhere I step that's that trend was made up by the administration team that decided that RP should not be rewarded by anything and only cash grinding must be rewarding. Simplifying things is not always a good move.

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Where the end starts | Submergence | Awaken | Scarlet D(a\o)wn | Remilia wiki page
BECAUSE YOU DON'T SAY SLAUGHTER WITHOUT LAUGHTER

[Wraga]

I'm wondering what is wrong with the zoners, since there are multiple threads what ask for make them weaker...

Exactly, what is the problem with them? Why can't we leave them as they are at the moment?

Because some peeps want them to be a way bigger as they actually are. That's a problem with many faction here though.

*shakes head*

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[Timmy]

Thanks, Anaximander, for your post, was prety informative.

As for all those cap hate posts... I do not consider that they should be removed from game, but I do agree that they should be far more restricted then what we have right now. At least the same way as Barge. Only SRPed.

[Krank]

To put it simply the warship fleets conflicts heavily with the neutrality stated in the lore. Zoners are supposed to rely on diplomacy, they rely on filling a niche and not stepping on anyones toes (that's the cool Vanilla Zoners that made a lot of sense and was a very interesting and tricky faction), but that doesn't add up with the leviathan Disco devs transformed them into.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. Why assign the one of the largest and most powerful warships in the game to a faction that is supposed to be neutral to everyone? 'Oh, but it's a colony ship' you say? As a colony ship, it would have defenses sure enough, but 4 BS heavies and a 9 mil powercore? Does it make sense in RP, no. Yes, the Omicrons are dangerous but the Zoners chose to live there at their own risk. For the sake of their own rules of staying neutral, they should just run at the first sign of trouble. I always associated the Zoners with modern day hippies/surfers/ etc. IMO they should be cruisin around in VW buses instead of Tanks.

But, this is a game that relies on game mechanics. Without pew pew, the game would cease to exist. On smaller servers where there are seldom enough people to make large groups, the Nephilim is one of the few cap ship able to go solo toe to toe with a Marduk NPC patrol and survive. It would make more sense for the Order to have a ship to counter the Nomad threat, even if it were just a few of them. Progressing story lines, server events, and player interactions have drawn the Order in a different direction. If the Zoners want to help save humanity from the alien threat, I would think they would gladly hand over the plans for this huge ship to the Order and maybe even build them for the Order instead of just taking it upon themselves to attack the Nomads on their own, alone.

I say drop the Zoners back to Cruiser and below and give the big nasty Battleship to the Order.

[Wraga]

Personally I would like to see capships only in official hands... but since its offtopic it doesnt matter really here.

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[Highland Laddie]

say drop the Zoners back to Cruiser and below and give the big nasty Battleship to the Order.

The only real BS the Order had by 800 A.S. was the Osiris, wasn't it? And at the time, it was new and had a cloak (unlike other ships).

I'm not entirely sure the Order would have the resources after the loss of Toledo to maintain a fleet of BS, much less more than 1 big nasty BS like the Juggernaut/Nephilim. Although, maybe if the Order and Zoners got together, such a tech trade could be possible through diplomacy? (you know...that crazy RP thing folks do sometimes?)

[DarthBindo]

say drop the Zoners back to Cruiser and below and give the big nasty Battleship to the Order.

The only real BS the Order had by 800 A.S. was the Osiris, wasn't it? And at the time, it was new and had a cloak (unlike other ships).

The Osiris was developed in conjunction with the Corsairs, using their resources and shipyards, which is why we also have access to it.
As for the Corsairs and Outcasts supporting fleets, we both have planets rich in mineral resources.
It's always been my understanding that the few things the Corsairs have to import for shipbuilding are advanced electronics from Samura and certain rare alloys for use in engine building (and of course the engine components themselves).
Let's not forget that the Hispanic factions are small Houses unto themselves.

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gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|

[Lonely_Ghost]

The main difference, which I see, between zoners, and sairs/casts/hessians/order/BD with togo/Core, that zoners doesn't need caps for fight. Yes, they don't fight. You can snac me 12314213123 times, but zoner's aren't warriors, neither solders. They have no fleet. Because, fleet is much more complicated and organised system, which demands discipline, order, subordination, people.
And it's not because zoner's doesn't meet any of this criteria, it's because, zoners doesn't need it at all.


Hardly zoners need anything like this. They living in their freeport, far from politic, taxes, bullcrapu house laws and so on. Thye are happy to be there and being free. All they need from their combat ships- protection. Zoners doesn't need combat fleet, because, they are against war. And they are fine with every freeport having some defence ships. Few destroyers, gunboats, some bomber wings, and fighters, what else station need? Battleship size vessel will rather be used as evacuation ship, in case defenders fail to do their job. Or you think, that carrier, with, let's say even 300 people- refuges from freeport, would engage hostile battleship, which actually IS BATTLESHIP, which indeed means warship, which zoners doesn't have.
+ small thoughts. If, let's say, Freeport 11 engaged by Nomad forces, not only zoners will counter them. I bet, Core, Order, and may be even Sairs would give a hand against common enemy. So, it's another argument, against zoner's fleet.

So, take it as it is, and face the truth: Zoner battleships are big, ultra armored/armed TRANSPORTS.