Can Rheinland nationalise Stuttgart?

[An'shur]

Because then if we applied your reasoning, we would have:

• Zoners kicked out from Bering because they sit in the middle of a war zone.
  
• Zoners kicked from Tau 29 as Gallics supposedly do not like them and remain dangerously close to anti-royalist forces.
  
• IMG kicked from Bretonia if the government chose to nationalize their assets (which are quite a few) in order to boost the raw materials gathering and production oriented toward war resources.
  
• IMG kicked from Tau 23 because there's already the gallic GMS to take their spot
  
• And I'm sure there's a couple more of cases on the list to add but which I cannot be arsed to remember, as I only listed the ones I've heard the most across skype chats. You lot are just completely annoying thinking that only Rheinland is the one being treated "unfairly" here.

Your opinions sounds ok.. Zoners in Bering, you know their neutrality with 22 turrets. Allways trying to be neutral, even to Gauls. I don't know many about IMG-Gallic relationships. Everywhere is some reason. I hope logical. Explanation would be welcomed

Also Synth Foods on Stuttgart. They are selling to Rheinland and to Liberty ok, but if that planet is controlled by Rheinland government, can Rheinland afford to keep them sending half food to hostile nation? Why not all to Rheinland and make Liberty to lose this source? I think this opinion falls into military strategy rather than economy.

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[Ryummel]

an Rheinland afford to keep them sending half food to hostile nation? Why not all to Rheinland and make Liberty to lose this source?

Why are you assuming that SynthFoods would send part of their produced stock to Liberty when they already have Los Angeles for that purpose already? It's not about Liberty getting a new source of food, it's about a company founded in Liberty making money while selling their (cheap) paste to the locals and adjacent territories (and in times of war, Rheinland and Bretonia should be the best buyers right now for the Stuttgart SF division).

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[larzac]

And where go this benefits? in liberty, who get taxes on them. It would be better in rheinland government pocket, i think if i was them. There are no logical reason to let a planet who has a big potential in food supply in the hand of libertonian corporation. Especially when you have people of your nation who disturb your economie to get it back.
Give me ONE logical reason for rheinland to let it in SynthPast hand please.

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[Ryummel]

I'm not bothering to repeat something similar what was already posted in here.

But if you're of the kind of guys who:
[15/07/2014 19:42:25] Pavel: holy crap
[15/07/2014 19:42:39] Pavel: people keep thinking DHC is gate building company

Then I guess your answer will be "ye but Sirius market isn't 21st century market" despite the game having been developed with that mindset.

EDIT: and with that '21st century mindset' I mean to say that DA developed the game in a way that until the Nomad War, no full scale war between Houses happened ever (a war which was triggered by aliens that didn't give a damn about economical stability here or there), but instead sort of 'proxy wars' such as the GMG - Rheinland conflict, where the GMG was funded by Kusari.

EDIT2: but then again, as long as there's people who believe the Houses are meant to be self-sustaining and people who believe the Houses need each other, then we can keep this and plenty more of threads throwing the same argument over and over again with no results at all. In the end it's gonna look like Gallia wasn't the worst plotline in this mod.

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[Leppy]

I think this opinion falls into military strategy rather than economy.

And therein lies your problem. The reason why Rheinland would never make this move is because of economic reasons.

Let's take a look at some of Rheinland's more recent economic activities.

• Nomad War: military fleet essentially decimated. Economy focuses on rebuilding military power
  
• Default on IC debt: recession/depression of economy due to loss of borrowing ability and downgrading of credit-worthiness
  
• Nationalization of Bonn: takeover of a trans-Sirius corporation's assets in house space. Such a thing would give all other non-Rheinland based companies pause at increasing activity there
  
• Loss of trading partners in Bretonia and Liberty: Gallic War draining Bretonia's resources and well Liberty is obvious
  

Now let's add in the takeover of *another* foreign company's *legally obtained* assets by the government. This would be the second time in less than 5(?) years that Rheinland has unilaterally seized rather large-scale holdings of non-Rheinland based companies.

There is no way that another company (Bretonian, Liberty, Kusari, or even Gallia) would expand significantly into Rheinland space again because of the risk of completely losing their assets at a moment's notice. If you believe that this won't cause another downturn in Rheinland's already relatively tanked economy, then I would suggest going to your local library, checking out a few books on macro and micro economics, and set aside some reading time.



Also as Ryummel posted, the Sirius economy is based on a 21st century model. You can't look back at the actions of wars from the past because that was a radically different economic situation than the current one. Yes, Synth Foods is based in Liberty, but they have significant market presence in the other houses. It's closer to the idea of modern companies such as British Petroleum (a British owned/based company) is found in many nations across the world.



Finally, please stop saying "our" and "us" in reference to Rheinland. It shows a clear bias in your thinking. When you're looking at topics in this mod, you have to be as impartial as possible. Having a favorite faction(s) is great, but when you let your affection for a specific faction drive all of your thinking, that's when problems occur.

You need to learn that the characters you play on the server are separate from your player identity. Their interests are not your OORP interests.

If you believe that Rheinland has been slighted by the mod (which they have but are in no way the only ones to have it happen to), then bring that up as a topic for discussion by itself. Proposing a large change like this because it would better "you" is the wrong way to do things.

[Lonely_Ghost]

I say, Rheinland can nationalize Stuttgart completely, but this not going to be the first step of "Reborn of Rheinland", but rather one of the last steps.

First step, should be establishment of an intensive trading with Kusari & Gallia. Trading is basic income provider, and money, is like an air need for Rheinland now. That would be civilian/economic move.

Second step ( but not necessary) is droping a minefield near all Rheinland-Liberty path, nuke them completely, to avoid any future progress in war Rheinland can't win. ( Yes, I realise, that game-wise, this decision might be a fail, that cut off player's activity).

Third step should be redirecting all military resources and send them on reacquiring Dresden, and restore all mining and manufacturing activity ASAP. Next should be Omega 11, with rich Diamond deposits. Omega 11 is a very perfect candidate, because, only DHC there, and Rheinland advantage there should not rise any Q_Q in lawfull Sirius world.
Hessians & Corsairs (Corsairs could also become a new "buddy") should become main enemy for Rheinland Military, while internal conflicts (Unioners & Company) should be handled by Police. With acquir of Dresden and extensive operations in Omega 11, Rheinland's export should increas even more, together with industry power.

As long, IMG has good relations with Gallia, making any significant moves against them very risky, so Omega 7 should be kept as it is. Rheinland should focus on expeditions into less explored systems, for search of a new resources. Koeln is a nice example, of how to make such things. Also, they could put an eye on Sigmas and GMGs.

So only after several steps, when Rheinland would manage to restore it's financial and economy, with trading, great export and good relationships trade relationships, when rest Sirius will be tied even more with Rheinland (because of unique export) then, Rheinland could restore it's fleet and only then nationalise Stuttgart, which would be a symbol of a new strong Rheinland.

[Knjaz]

[*]Nationalization of Bonn: takeover of a trans-Sirius corporation's assets in house space. Such a thing would give all other non-Rheinland based companies pause at increasing activity there

Now let's add in the takeover of *another* foreign company's *legally obtained* assets by the government. This would be the second time in less than 5(?) years that Rheinland has unilaterally seized rather large-scale holdings of non-Rheinland based companies.

There is no way that another company (Bretonian, Liberty, Kusari, or even Gallia) would expand significantly into Rheinland space again because of the risk of completely losing their assets at a moment's notice. If you believe that this won't cause another downturn in Rheinland's already relatively tanked economy, then I would suggest going to your local library, checking out a few books on macro and micro economics, and set aside some reading time.

Also as Ryummel posted, the Sirius economy is based on a 21st century model. You can't look back at the actions of wars from the past because that was a radically different economic situation than the current one. Yes, Synth Foods is based in Liberty, but they have significant market presence in the other houses. It's closer to the idea of modern companies such as British Petroleum (a British owned/based company) is found in many nations across the world.

You're making 2 basic mistakens here.

Sirius economy is based on the beginning/first half of 20th Century, just like it's warfare. Otherwise Liberty and it's companies are getting into free fall mode the moment it becomes 21st century model, given the current economical and strategic situation.

Grabbing assets of the entity that attacked you and pushed you into full scale war is a correct and appropriate answer. Unless Kusarians or Bretonians plan to go to war with Rheinland any time soon, they'd have nothing to be afraid about - and they know it.

[Lonely_Ghost]

Grabbing assets of the entity that attacked you and pushed you into full scale war is a correct and appropriate answer. Unless Kusarians or Bretonians plan to go to war with Rheinland any time soon, they'd have nothing to be afraid about - and they know it.

Also, need to note, that nearly half of Kusari has very cold relations with Syth, and probably, would support any difficultness being made on Syth's way.
Bretonia ofcrs could ask some questions, but they have Gallia ready to rape her. Plus, Rheinland should try to cut off all remaining ties with Bretonia, because, friendship with Gallia is much cooler. Also... If war with Liberty could be stoped, why would Rheinland didn't want to add Omega 3 into her territory eventualy?
There are indeed, very few political reasons, holding Rheinland from taking over Stuttgart, however, there are some economical issues indeed.

Syth foods is large corp, who engage in production and trade, both are taxable, which means income. It's very doubtfull, that, after nationalisation, Stuttgart's food industry would be operating for all 100% as it was.
After nationalisation, Rheinlad would need to invest lots of founds into planet (nothing holding Syth's from sabotage) and we not even talking about food's market and prices. How long going to take "Rheinland reborn" then?
Hunger, is first stage of Maslov's pyramid, which means basic needs. Men could take a very high risk to feed himself or his family. And that would lead into crime, strikes and riots, and we will have middle age's problem at ~ 3000 year.......

[Leppy]

Sirius economy is based on the beginning/first half of 20th Century, just like it's warfare. Otherwise Liberty and it's companies are getting into free fall mode the moment it becomes 21st century model, given the current economical and strategic situation.

Grabbing assets of the entity that attacked you and pushed you into full scale war is a correct and appropriate answer. Unless Kusarians or Bretonians plan to go to war with Rheinland any time soon, they'd have nothing to be afraid about - and they know it.

They're actually more of a mix. I'd love to hear Liberty's economy (essentially a service one) in the terms of an early 1900s economy. My point about the 21st century economy comment was the existence of corporations that, while being based mainly in a specific house, have a nearly Sirius-wide (as far as the 4 houses goes) presence with large operations and market shares. Synth Foods comes pretty close to being on that level with how widely they operate.

Just curious, but was Interspace at war with Rheinland when they had Bonn seized? Because last time I checked, they only had a few rogue pilots (ie: indies) sell some blood diamonds to the RH. And if Rheinland was willing to gut its own economy and default on the IC debt as well as seize Bonn, simply because of that, why would a company (that would cost Rheinland's economy less pain to lose) trust that they wouldn't run afoul of the government and have their assets seized for something even smaller?

(Just a side note to correct your mistake: Rheinland struck first in the war. There was the fun little bombing of the police base in NY)

Regarding Liberty and their current economy in a 21st century-esque style, even if you ignore the 20 layers of plot armor that's been in place since vanilla, Liberty's economy is mainly based on service. However, they have close access to IC and it's lending ability. As someone else has said, the US is currently the largest economy (for now) in the world despite the 10+ trillion dollar debt it has. A nation can stay running a long time on debt if someone is still willing to lend them cash.



EDIT: I agree with what Lonely Ghost has said about it as well

[Lonely_Ghost]

A nation can stay running a long time on debt if someone is still willing to lend them cash.

And they don't realy want to lend cash anymore.