So four Factions have taken the opportunity to do this and it seems that these discussions are calm and civilised, this is very good. Unfortunately this still isn't enough, whilst it is good that they have chosen to do this they cannot be forced to make any changes which they themselves are opposed to, changes that are required to bring them up to the standard currently required. It still speaks of hypocrisy that any new faction must meet a high standard of presentation and understanding of Discovery and yet older factions do not. This idea needs teeth to work, as it stands each faction is well within it's rights to avoid doing anything it feels is detrimental but yet is required for any new faction.
Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.
' Wrote:So four Factions have taken the opportunity to do this and it seems that these discussions are calm and civilised, this is very good. Unfortunately this still isn't enough, whilst it is good that they have chosen to do this they cannot be forced to make any changes which they themselves are opposed to, changes that are required to bring them up to the standard currently required. It still speaks of hypocrisy that any new faction must meet a high standard of presentation and understanding of Discovery and yet older factions do not. This idea needs teeth to work, as it stands each faction is well within it's rights to avoid doing anything it feels is detrimental but yet is required for any new faction.
Now you're pushing the line, Del. You want a direct influence on the factions, you want to force them to take decisions that they may not agree about. And don't just hold that banner of high standards, its idealistic and I see great deal of unhealthy zeal here. Finally I'm not sure about good intentions of it all anymore, just as you cry out "hypocrisy" I may as well point it back here, and say "leverage", and both of us would be right to a certain degree. Understand simple thing: people have different understandings, apart from rules, apart from recommendations you cannot literally to force them to confirm. Plus, talking about standards here, now what are they really? Go ahead, elaborate on that part first, heavily, before you even step in and claim a conquest here, a conquest I personally do not support anymore. I'd like to have facts right there, not fiction, not abstract concept of fairness, not high ideals, I'd like to have heavy duty paperwork done before this even goes any further. The idea needs a brain crunching, not zealous teeth to bite everyone who doesn't agree, as you are about to impose a very complex layer onto the rules. Justify those changes, convince the people they will somehow increase the quality, but forcing "with teeth", now you are really pushing it.
Edit: And final thing, I told you several times: human factor must be taken into account, yet you agree but then just ignore that. What if a person wants a change for the faction he/she doesn't personally likes, a change that will harm it greatly but cover it with smart rhetorics of abstract and quite personal roleplay quality? What if a persons seeks advantage by forcing opposing faction to take changes that will benefit said person indirectly, again using great deal of well-done speech. This is about to bring a new level politics, of pressure, of leverage. Now that you don't take into account at all and I see no way you have addressed it yet as to mythical "curing". And so far I've only heard same rhetorics about how it gonna benefit us all, whereas my skepticism grows even further. I don't believe that, and this, while good idea at early concept, has become an almost religious crusade.
Definition is the key. Being loosely defined it's a back door swinging wide open for all things worse and attracting them. I'm opposing that loose definition, to me it's a security vulnerability that is being so far ignored at very large. Have a solid ground, have strict definition, then and only then, you can put something like that to propose. Until then, it's murky ground. And who is to hold responsibility for the changes you, for example, will try to force? That hasn't been addressed yet too. I'm responsible for my own actions and decisions I take for my faction, but I'm not going to be responsible for the actions others may try to impose on me, that is the line of common sense and freedoms I'm holding to and will defend. It takes away the whole suggestive nature downhill to pit and becomes of matter of ill-politics, a great deal of which I've seen around in my not-so-long presence. Address the issues beforehand, and not only these, patch it up, and may be I'll support it, until then - no.
I am probably gonna get yelled at for this...but I kind of agree with Del. It seems that by the current standards, we are trying to force new factions to meet the same standards that the best factions on the server are setting. But thats just me.
While being quite funny, your sig was the biggest one i've ever seen so far. No more than 700x250 please. ~utrack http://pastebin.com/SYQXBufs
There's a massive problem, the problem being that there are official factions not being held to the standards we expect of new factions, and that is in no way fair to the new factions. Its downright cruel. Examine the human factor there. As far as I can tell, right now we're in an in-between state, where we've a double standard. As long as you're fine with that, everything's dandy. Myself, I've a problem with the double standard. The options I'm aware of that remedy that situation are A: follow through with this proposal, and hold every faction to the standard, or B: drop the standard. Now, assuming that the standard we have now is a good one, which I believe is true, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems counterproductive to drop the standard. That leaves this option, and while I understand that it is also upsetting, and a lot of work, and not quite fair to the factions that will get hit by it, I don't want to sit by and let the situation persist...it just seems wrong to me. Morally wrong. I cannot keep demanding that new factions measure up if they can point to official factions that I don't think would pass the gauntlet. If you disagree with the assumption that there's a double standard going on, I cant really empathize with you. But if you think this is the wrong way to fix the double standard, please. Put your neck out, and suggest we drop the standard for new factions. You may find support from many places. And you'll get my respect.
Unselie,
going with the only right option proposed so far.
EDIT: Treewyrm, what, exactly, passes or fails a faction proposal? Very hard to quantify, if at all possible. If thats you're question, well, for your part, what passed the Keepers? I believe the QCRF got approval because it proposed to do something new, that the SF really wasn't doing at the time, and the fact that I restricted everything to bret themes(ships, guns, names, etc) greased the way a whole lot.
I don't think Yuri is saying that there isn't a double-standard, I believe that he is rightly implying that a vocal minority, which includes myself, may wish to see things changed to how they like it...
We should be careful about that, in spite of good intentions all around.
Of course we should. No one disagrees, there. But I do honestly and strongly believe that something must be done, and I'm going to fight for an action. Going with this one right now.
personally i don't agree on this thread one little bit, while its all fare and good telling the older officials to go back into the judge box... i don't think its fare to force them and yes this is quite literally trying to force them to bend to the community's way of doing things.
and i didnt put the feedback thread up for this thread del hope you know that... because this whole thing is a pile of crap. the standards set for the newer factions in my opinion where SET by the older ones.... the stuff you say about "we had to go through admin approval" was, is and always will be void.
i personally think this thread is completely void because EVERY and yes i mean absolutely EVERY SINGLE one of the factions on that official faction status is by far capable and very much so intwine with RP you speak of getting upto scratch with current RP standards.... well the way i see it they ARE the RP standards.... factions that are around on that thread have made it through thick and thin, have lasted the ages and flames.... telling them to change or telling them to go into the judge room so others can force them to change is just plain wrong and selfish... what one person may see as good RP another can see as bad.
and yes the human factor very much comes into this one aswell. and in my opinion this thread is by far... very human and manipulative and by all means..... very very bias.
personally i don't think forcing changes upon anyone is right, and quite frankly you can say good bye to me if you wanna try and dictate to me how to run MY faction and what you want in and out of it...
the point im getting at what gives you the right to make this decision del? what gives you the right to say what is better and what is not? what gives you the right to play god with other peoples creations or anyone for that matter. not even the admin's have the right to play that role my friends.
im personally quiting if it comes to the point of everyone having to be told your in or out just because i don't like you, or just because i don't think your upto scratch.
the whole thing on this server about "we need to make things better" is getting stupid really REALLY stupid infact so stupid your making things worse and creating more arguments and hassle
I think calming down there might be a good idea, Lohingren... you don't have to agree with Del... Treewyrm brings up very good points, for instance, but I think that Del is making a hell of an effort to help here.
I wouldn't accuse him of being selfish... he's basically saying that the older factions should be playing by the same rules that the new ones are... which is only fair.
The implementation, however, needs work to prevent insults or flames and similar.
its not the theory im pissed about, its the sheer thing hes proposing.... dictating to factions on how to run them? dictating on changes its not right in the slightest
how would you like to paint a picture for hours on end... then someone to run in and take a nice big marker and scribble all over it?
![[Image: Del1.png]](http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a344/Spiderjerusalem1979/Del1.png)
![[Image: sig-9566.jpg]](http://www.clintonio.com/sig-9566.jpg)
![[Image: smniko.jpg]](http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7703/smniko.jpg)