Zone 21 / Alaska rule Enforcement

[Jinx]

"Also, where exactly are you getting this idea that the RM want to ban independents of every faction? I've never heard anything from anyone in the RM that would support such a thing."

no, but if we think that it is "right" to ban battleships of one faction from free players choice, - its right for every other faction to do so, too. - no matter of being a pure military or a semi military/civilian faction. - in terms of RP, it does make sense one way or another ( that part is undeniable - of course )

the question is - do we want that? - what if all the houses locked down battleships for players. - went on to cruisers, gunboats - and VHF MK2 / bombers ( as we can all agree that those are pure military vessels that no civilian can get his hands on, too ) - assuming that incident 1 ( rheinland battleships ) was a correct decission, - the followups are correct, too, as they are purly based on the very same thought.

i am not saying its right, nor do i say its wrong, cause it depends on what opinion of roleplay one has. -

back to the topic of alaska though, it means that indeed the playerfaciton can tell others who can go there and who cannot. - they can ... based on that thought even tell them what they can belong to ( factionwise ) and what not, - who is an imposter and who is not.

cause, a tight military faciton with a distinct leader does not only control its equipment, but will also know who is part of the faction and who is not. - but where does it leave those that are not within that faction. - and what happens when trading cooperations start that thing, too. - or zoners, or pirates ( as they are similar to houses ) - where is the freedom after all that. - a perfectly RPed world with pretty much the same limits as RP, but without as many choices.... .

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[Praetyre]

The rationale for the restriction of military vessels is specifically a justification based on the unique structures of military organisation (that of a unified, rigid, organised chain of command) and towards the real life conventions of militaries and laws pertaining to them. Though I personally agree with you on the "RH battleships-Banshees" argument, though perhaps Rheinland sold off some of it's fighters to pay off war debts years ago.

Thus, the comparison of regulations instituted by military factions to ones that you allege would be imposed by nonmilitary factions or have a rationale to impose as the results of above policy is a slippery slope fallacy, because the rationale and criteria that I and others like me propose could not possibly be applied to nonmilitary factions due to the fact our very arguments appeal to the fundamental nature of a military, and not to the specific authority of player factions as an entire group.

Here's quote on my criterial rationale from a debate on another forum, for reference;

Any faction that;
A. Owns the guard system
B. Is headed by a Fleet Admiral or equivalent rank
C. Calls itself the Rheinland Military, Kusari Naval Forces, Bretonian Armed Forces or the Liberty Navy
D. Is a military faction (RM, KNF, BAF, LN)
can enact such policies.

Though, "unilaterally named military faction" should partially replace the text of the 4th criteria.

Also, militaries/police are one of the few, if not only organisations where independents can possibly be totally shut out. Corporations can have affiliates, hired traders, sponsors, sponsored, incorporates, rogue shareholders. Pirates are very much free wheeling, and would undoubtedly have lots of gangs and subgangs. Corsairs are divided into numerous other major structures, fending brutally to survive and otherwise disorganised.

The Outcasts are a whole House, a whole civilization dominated by Dons and full of all kinds of people. Mercenaries, by their very nature, are independent. The BHG are more organised, but still not even close to the level of structure in a military. Freelancers, self explanatory.

Only militaries (even paramilitaries are typically fractured, such as the IRA, Real IRA, Provisional IRA and the like) are truly organized, monolithic and structured organisations and possess the *potential* (not the requirement) to be monolithic.

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[hakisaki]

So in regards to Alaska, which is the problem we're discussing here, the right of the factions to police the sector is being called into question?

I believe that is the most fair thing the Liberty factions do. If it's a restricted military sector, it is perfectly within RP for the military to patrol it, just as it's perfectly within RP to try and sneak in if you do it correctly. Think of it this way:
If nobody tried to sneak in, why guard it?
If nobody tried to guard it, why not try and sneak in?
If people are sneaking in, why isn't it being guarded?

The answer is to guard the gate and to tolerate attempts to sneak in, by gleefully killing the offenders.

There are other things that need to be talked about with the military factions and those are being brought up here, but they don't belong here. Also it's hard to understand what some of you are actually saying. I feel like for now we should just work on resolving the issues in context with how they relate to alaska. So what we need to know is
1) How is Alaska going to be handled in the future?
2) Is that ok with everyone?

What I would like to know is whether we're all wasting our time. Are we? Is there anyone reading this thread who can influence how the situation in alaska is dealt with? If we don't talk with the leaders of the SA, LSF, LPI etc, we can't come to an agreement of any kind and all of this space is being wasted.

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[chovynz]

Here's an Idea.

How about using actual codes? They could be transmitted to the relevant players in PM on the forums or skyp or whatever else you want to use and change each day/week?

All relevant guards and ships will have access and authorization. they will know the codes. Anyone can be challenged. People might be able to approach if they have legit business - they can let guards know they are approaching and when close can be asked for the gate codes. If they fail or are old codes they could be turned back or shot.

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[Robert.Fitzgerald]

NyungSoong, that is a really good idea. Seriously! Passed onto the SA for inspection.

It also may allow for well-roleplayed indies to access the system.

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[Jinx]

while the idea is good - what about those that "sneak" through without codes. - since the gate doesn t require codes to work. - report ooRPness of those that do not have the codes for taking a jumpgate that they cannot activate in RP?

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[Linkus]

They could claim they aquired the codes from the black market etc, or lane hackers etc.

I say let Liberty enforce their rules on their system. If they want to kill all intruders, let them. It is their space. As long as it is within the server rules, they are perfectly entitled to create and uphold the laws of their systems. Considering it is a military zone, I doubt many would be allowed in. Only difference to RL is that in RL you will be arrested, hard to arrest someone in space where they can run away.


EDIT: Speaking of Zone 21, what happened to the other 20?

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[Robert.Fitzgerald]

They could claim they aquired the codes from the black market etc

I don't like this. I could claim I acquired these corsair shieldbusters on my Sabre from the black market...

Anyway, the codes would be changed often. Once a "key" was sold onto the market, it'd probably be changed soon after.

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[Jinx]

@Linkus :

thats perfectly fine - if they are asked, they should still.... umm... know the code, though. - saying "i got it from the blackmarket or the hackers" but then not being able to provide the code is a lame excuse about as good as "i really stole that battleship, i swear".

for a char that actually RPed getting the code - means... the hackers would actually have to bribe an active player into giving them the code... then they could RP selling it... and then..... well, whatever follows up.

that would mean that the LSF might not have a list of players they gave the code to officially, but actually really just checked the code, knowing that whoever has the code is authorized. - then there would be a good interaction and RP involved about this nasty gate ... with real RP trade of information.

mind, that can be exploited... i just wait for the first jerk to shout out the code in system chat..... you cant think as silly as some people are....

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[hakisaki]

You guys just gave me an idea. You all get the credit for this, I just call it as I see it.

If you think the smugglers should role play stealing the code, then the LSF ought to role play having a real code.

You want a code, you got a code.

The LSF:
1) Keeps and maintains access codes to the gate. These should change often. Permenant codes for senior officers could be used, but even those ought to change often.
2) Posts code in a place accessible only to the guards of the gate for reference.
3) Lets anyone with the correct code through the gate no questions asked
4) Kills anyone with the wrong code no questions asked
5) If any player with access is killed after or before the code is revealed, said player should not blow the whistle on the fact that the code is revealed as a matter of it being out of RP for a dead player to reveal that the codes have been compromised. Players privy to this knowledge without witnessing the event or hearing by a player other than the deceased player should not change the codes "Just to be safe" since they would have no knowledge of the fact that the other player had been killed. This is to keep from changing the codes in an out of rp manner and denying a good RPer their rights to what they worked for. Of course, threatened or trapped officers could refuse to give up the code or give a false code.

Anyone Going Through The Gate
1) Has to role play getting the codes from another player or
2) Has to overhear the codes or
3) Has to find the place where the codes are kept (Litterally stealing the codes. I feel that this would be epic to do and would be well within RP)
4) If the codes are wrong, gets killed.
5) Dead men tell no tales. If the player carrying the code is killed, said player is not allowed to spread the code to other players the rest of that day (Presuming the code is changed daily at least in order to be effective)

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