Choosing a side: Metagaming and some issues

[JonasHudson]

Starting a separate topic on this because I didn't want to go too off topic on the 4.4 thread, but this comment raised a lot of questions for me.

Leeds shouldn't be Bretonia at this point anyways. It's almost fully Gallic controlled for over 2 years with 5 out of 6 bases (the 6th being the satellite) belonging to GRN or Gallic corporations. Same goes for Edinburgh, they should both be Gallic Borderworlds instead of Bretonia rule-wise.

Am I the only one that thinks this whole confilct is going the wrong direction? Unless Gallia is going to start being pushed back, and I think the turnout at the first Deltabase battle proved many like that, I think the war should be ended within the next year so we can move on to new and more interesting conflicts. This has dragged on so long and no one has any idea of what the overall intent is behind whats going to happen, everyone has a different idea about whats appropriate on this topic. Is the point to occupy all of Bretonia eventually? Or they surrender? Is there any plan to continue the story? Do the players really contribute to that? And if so how can it be taken seriously when most of the GRN that show up likely aren't solely playing as GRN most of the time? It doesn't seem to make sense to me anymore that one house vs 2 houses (both now only at war with Gallia, as far as war with other houses go) continues to go so well for the 1 house (Gallia). The only reason SEI fell was because in the end there were more players with valors or other GRN indies that just couldn't resist the chance to shoot a base. If people had to choose between their factions and roleplay like in the past (as in, not being able to have chars from opposing factions), I think few of those players would settle with Gallia just to whip out a valor every 6 months for a base siege. I think if players want to come out in numbers to determine the fate of a battle, it should be because they actually have vested interests in it, and not because they simply have a valor indie stashed for a rainy day to get an hour or two of cheap thrills out of it at times like this.

Meaning I don't think people should be belonging (especially) to player factions that are opposed to each other. Its not crazy, population never dwindled to nothing, there's still plenty of players here, and I think people should have to choose their sides carefully, I know some think of population problems or balancing battles as good reasons for this but honestly when we form for a battle and people switch up to opposing ships just to 'balance' things out, the actual value of the RP of the activity becomes 0. When this happens, the sound of a toilet flushing can be heard in my head, and I pretty much want to go solo again. Why die in an arcade style set up battle and lose two hours on that ship when I could just do my own thing and risk an inrp battle somewhere else in that time?

As for the war, it makes no sense, and never will because of this allowance of liberty between opposing sides. It turns the event like the recent siege in Leeds into nothing more than an oorp gank squad of players looking for a cheap and easy reason to fire at a base period. You rarely see any of these ships, all of the players definitely more often play as other factions, likely ones opposed to Gallia, and yet we're supposed to accept that it now has serious RP consequences on the fate of Leeds storywise. I feel that if those players had been forced to limit and choose their sides based on diplomacy, most would not ultimately side with Gallia.

Really if we need to work behind the scenes to balance these battles we're doing it wrong. If people had to choose, their choices would determine who wins the field or not, and the balance comes from which side is preferred over all by players. If people simply choose one of their ships over another because they prefer the attacker's position over the defender's, RP here is dead and this is nothing but an arcade game with multiple arenas to choose from that have some kind of back story to them, that doesn't really matter. Also, when the same ships can come back and resume the siege only 2 hours later, there really is no way to win, ever. Its like groundhog day where you have to relive the same siege over and over again, and the attackers only have to win once, while the defenders have to win over and over and over.

My recommendation to mitigate this problem for base sieges on the short term is this: if your ship dies attacking a base and is participating in an attack that required a forum RP attack notice, you should be PVP dead to it for 7 days. That's right, 7 days before you can bring that battleship back again to continue your siege. Bases don't get respawns, a lot of work goes into them, and battleships can come back only after a few hours or a day to regroup and keep trying. If activity is supposed to have RP consequences, or be able to, I think we should see some more enforcement of RP consequences. Seeing the same ships over and over even after being destroyed makes no sense. At least with a rule like that, sieges would stretch out, and bases would last longer. I know how the game mechanics work and why, but all this does is create a huge oorp elephant in the room to have to work around when trying to roleplay around it. This is the reason why my own roleplay on the forums has remained limited after returning, since it feels like sometimes there is no point, the oorp nature of the mechanics seems to water it down for me. I think we need a total revamp in the rules concerning flying for two sides in a war, and being able to choose at the moment of battle, and not beforehand like in real conflict. There is a potential for RP that is always lost now out of a desire for convenience. I'm pretty sure there was once a time when it was called...metagaming! And well it is, its just acceptable now. I feel we need a return to the days when it was not acceptable.

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[Thunderer]

The force to destroy the SEI bases wasn't assembled by RP propaganda, that is true, but by an ooRP one. Someone called the SEI "powergamers", to which some people agreed, and voila, a fleet of Valors is knocking on their gates. There really is no way to prevent ooRP hate from being a cause to some important events. If that was done, it would have more cons than pros, as it would take freedom away.

I oppose about switching sides. If people made characters only for the faction they truly liked, the Bretonians would, for example, have nothing to shoot at and no major source of activity, because no one would want to make a Gallic character. And if we're talking that the game should look closer to what it is like inRP, then it would, on the contrary, be normal to be ganked by the GRN. The GRN are the most powerful force in Sirius and currently they are the most powerful in Leeds and Magellan, so it was very realistic that the SEI base was destroyed. In fact, it wasn't realistic to defend it, at least with battleships, as those would surely be lost. It was fun, though.

And that's the point. Fun. Freedom is fun, why limit it if it is generally not harmful? Generally, yes, but there is no perfect thing. What you've spotted was just an imperfection. However, POBs being doomed the moment the siege is declared, if the attacker can muster enough people due to ooRP hate, is an imperfection that can be fixed. Your proposal about those 7 days is worth consideration, by my opinion.

Also, can you shorten it a bit next time, please?

[Omi]

The force to destroy the SEI bases wasn't assembled by RP propaganda, that is true, but by an ooRP one. Someone called the SEI "powergamers", to which some people agreed, and voila, a fleet of Valors is knocking on their gates.

I'm very interested where you got this impression from. If you have any evidence to back it up, please PM it to me on Skype or on the forums at your earliest convenience.

As far as I'm aware (I instigated the siege), the only reason the siege was started in the first place was because I got my hands back on GRN| leadership and found out that someone had let a hostile base sprout up in the same system where we're meant to concentrate our activity. The previous 1iC hadn't bothered to do anything about it, but I'm afraid it makes perfect iRP sense to me that the Gauls would flatten any PoB they weren't entirely sure about in Leeds of all places.

If there were indies talking trash or anyone else whinging about some other 'ulterior motive' to have gotten the thing killed, then give me names - as far as I'm aware, there was one failed attack which I wasn't part of and then a second one on Sunday night (which I did attend) which wasn't even planned; it was entirely impromptu.

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[Thunderer]

The fact that the GRN would raze any suspicious base in Leeds stands, but so does the "ulterior motive". I've sent you the PM.

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[Durandal]

Does everything seriously come down to POBs for most people nowadays? I started off reading it, saw how long it was, skipped to the end to look for a tl;dr and saw the topic suddenly switch from overarching storyline stuff to it being, once again, another POB thread.

Yes, we know POB mechanics are awful, but until somebody actually decides to code a proper implementation then you are going to be dealing with awful mechanics and awful mechanics breed awful behaviour, rules be damned.

[Thunderer]

I've received some information from Omicega, and I doubt the SEI base has been destroyed for the alleged "powergaming", it's just what certain people (!!!!!) trolled around about. Those certain people are really bad at caps, by the way.

It is what's already been said here: the officials wanted to make an achievement for their faction, and the indies wanted to shoot a base.

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[Wesker]

Those certain people are really bad at caps, by the way.

BAF|HMS-Thunderer was put out of action by [C]-CLN-La.Verite (Gun).

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[Thunderer]

That was a minefield that I didn't have mapped. Also, my mouse wheel has been repeatedly raped into oblivion by blindfire, so I have major problems speeding up and slowing down. I'll ascend you to Valhalla when I buy a new one.

PS: Oh, and I had lag.

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[Commander ZooM]

It you would, someone send me this apparent proof of powergaming in what ever form you have it, as faction leader it should have sent to me so i can formally correct everyone making these accusations in a separate thread.