(09-12-2017, 10:22 AM)Yber Wrote: I don't need to use half the stuff writen there to beat you or anyone better than you, so maybe you should get off your high horse.
Not to mention that you obviously have not read anything. As I said, people like you who want someone else to play the game for them are a waste of time and air.
It's funny how you people would rather have a good player teach everyone else rather than become good yourselves and teach the people you so fiercily say need to learn. And since you seem to know a lot better than any of us how to show them I'm sure you'd do much better than I ever could, mister easier-to-beat-than-lvl1-npc.
I read it all, and none of the things written there were unknown to me.
I dont want anyone to play the game for me.
I dont want you to give me private lessons.
I dont think you would beat me that easily.
I dont suck at pvp.
I've given private lessons to lots of people, and I've written pvp tutorials.
Just because the same 20 people throw out the 'get gud' argument out there doesnt make all the implicit arguments true.
I was commenting on the fact that discovery 'aces' (most, not all) shout 'get gud' in these arguments on the forums but shout 'get rekt' ingame, and give much less compassion to new players than they say they want to receive when they're whining about the time missiles made them lose a 5vs1 which they think they would have won if missiles were nerfed.
If aces started using missiles you would all lose either way on equal odds and then someone would find other reasons to suggest balance changes that benefit the less skilled players.
I happened to get PvP lessons from Lambda when I was in RM, and although I was (and still am) nowhere near to the skills of people like Wesker or Reeves, I don't care if I lose.
It's a game after all. Everyone can improve, even I. I know it takes time to scale the learning curve, but I don't care at all - I just wanna enjoy.
I frankly don't care of this PvP-whining thread - I've always enjoyed the game thoroughly since I started playing. Honestly, less whining, less drama, less trolls and memers would make this community way better.
(09-12-2017, 10:41 AM)Karlotta Wrote: I read it all, and none of the things written there were unknown to me.
I dont want anyone to play the game for me.
I dont want you to give me private lessons.
I dont think you would beat me that easily.
I dont suck at pvp.
I've given private lessons to lots of people, and I've written pvp tutorials.
Please spend 30 minutes telling everyone about all your tricks, and all the ways to counter them, and all the ways to beat you.
Go.
Sounds familiar? Because it does not sound to me like you are commenting on "aces" being assholes to newbies or on whether the sidewinder is a good or bad tool.
Nobody is entitled to victory, regardless of spending 1 hour in their lifetime training or 1 hour per day. What they are entitled to is to optimize their training if they want to improve and get better, and I have burned myself over providing the most simple and effective tools for doing so, ranging from ingame "private lessons" to dozens of videos recorded in a shitty 30fps laptop and going as far as writing throughly detailed guides on what I do that lets me survive situations other people don't and applying and countering mechanics and techniques most people can't even do properly.
I know you are not calling me out in particular, but there is little else that can be added to make the learning experience easier for new players, minus arguiably advertising these guides and making them more visible to people.
The point is, people who want to improve have all the tools at their disposal to do so. This was not a problem in 2011 when there were 0 guides of this kind and "aces" geniuly avoided explaining people what sliding was or how it worked.
If you think the material available is not good enough then go do better than I did. Even feel free to record yourself in the best setup possible doing what I explain in the guides to show video examples if you are so inclined, I will do everything I can to help you out in doing so.
If you are not going to do so then you are no better than any of these "aces" you so despise and you have no right to call anyone out over anything.
(09-12-2017, 10:19 AM)Antonio Wrote: That doesn't mean discovery shouldn't have noob tubes, and old sidewidners were a great system for that where you had to give up a gun to use a missile, something a vet would never do and a noob would always do. CMs worked fine enough, sidewinders had balanced stats and they hit about 1/3rd of the time and with proper manouvers you could dodge some of them. I remember fights with and against IMG in the Taus, all of them had old sidewinders or firestalkers and nobody complained, it was a great "shortcut" without breaking anything for the aces. If anything, we need more additions like that one. Small shortcuts are fine, as long as they're not 400ms unCMable undodgeable missiles.
This.
I agree with every point.
I would immediately go back to that version where even an inexperienced player could at some point contribute a little, while not really competing on the same level. That's fair: the good do still win, but the bad can at least play the same part of the game without being as effective an opponent as a cow in a slaughterhouse - with the same amount of "fun" attached.
Most people I have come into contact with by leading a newbie faction could never hit hull and damage superior players. Shield hits, possible. Hull, pactically never in any meaningful form. I would say that frustration about this inability to be useful has been the constant problem for many years - speaking from the pov of new players on Disco who I met.
Missiles helped, and I am in favour of them. And before I get flamed again, or vets log Sidewinder groups for me specifically to prove something: I am not saying that the current Sidewinders are fine. They are not. But the concept of tracking missiles that are useful is - in my opinion - a necessary "small shortcut", as Antonio pointed out.
Tunderer Wrote:There's not enough newbies for other newbies to kill, they only get slaughtered by vets. If the newbies try to win by numbers, they get stigmatized for being gankers. But, for some reason, the vets will never get stigmatized for seal-clubbing.
Also full agreement.
The group of snub-pvpers who initiate, organise or just log for snub pvp has become so small that whenever I log for a fight, I can almost guarantee to be confronted with at least a few of the group of very good players. No attack there against anybody, you are also just playing the game like I do.
However, with a pool that small and filled with quite a lot of very powerful sharks, the small fish will be gone fast. And that's where we are, imo, at the moment in Disco snub pvp. Too few small fish with too little chances to ever even become bigger because frustration deters even getting to the stage of "let's become better, I can do this."
Furthermore, the new 2-hour-death-rule sucks. It punishes those who are bad and makes losing fights even more painful by adding unnecessary punishment. It discourages the attitude that I tried to instill in new members "just throw yourself into every fight you see". I even see it in myself. I avoid fights when I know that dying would kill off what I want to do afterwards by 2 hour rule. Revert that one, asap. It does not add anything, but discourages a healthy "just go for it even if you explode" attitude to pvp.
Tunderer Wrote:If the newbie doesn't even drop the vet's shield, the newbie won't have fun, but if he does any damage, if he makes at least a small contribution to the fight, that is when everything changes. Players who feel useless will quit, players who feel useful will stay.
That's what I meant when I said that pvp balancing needs to make snub pvp more inclusive so that more people actually do it, more newbies are in the pool and stay in the pool, and less players just go "ye, I'm shit, won't do it, is no fun. I'll just trade (and then leave silently when pvp becomes the real currency)".
Of course many veterans and likely most aces likely do not care for those who "are not determined enough to actually put effort into it", but even those should realize that a full arena is better than an empty one, and that the good, big fights in the past were good and big because more players actually participated in them.
(09-12-2017, 10:19 AM)Antonio Wrote: That doesn't mean discovery shouldn't have noob tubes, and old sidewidners were a great system for that where you had to give up a gun to use a missile, something a vet would never do and a noob would always do. CMs worked fine enough, sidewinders had balanced stats and they hit about 1/3rd of the time and with proper manouvers you could dodge some of them. I remember fights with and against IMG in the Taus, all of them had old sidewinders or firestalkers and nobody complained, it was a great "shortcut" without breaking anything for the aces. If anything, we need more additions like that one. Small shortcuts are fine, as long as they're not 400ms unCMable undodgeable missiles.
This.
I agree with every point.
I would immediately go back to that version where even an inexperienced player could at some point contribute a little, while not really competing on the same level. That's fair: the good do still win, but the bad can at least play the same part of the game without being as effective an opponent as a cow in a slaughterhouse - with the same amount of "fun" attached.
Most people I have come into contact with by leading a newbie faction could never hit hull and damage superior players. Shield hits, possible. Hull, pactically never in any meaningful form. I would say that frustration about this inability to be useful has been the constant problem for many years - speaking from the pov of new players on Disco who I met.
Missiles helped, and I am in favour of them. And before I get flamed again, or vets log Sidewinder groups for me specifically to prove something: I am not saying that the current Sidewinders are fine. They are not. But the concept of tracking missiles that are useful is - in my opinion - a necessary "small shortcut", as Antonio pointed out.
Tunderer Wrote:There's not enough newbies for other newbies to kill, they only get slaughtered by vets. If the newbies try to win by numbers, they get stigmatized for being gankers. But, for some reason, the vets will never get stigmatized for seal-clubbing.
Also full agreement.
The group of snub-pvpers who initiate, organise or just log for snub pvp has become so small that whenever I log for a fight, I can almost guarantee to be confronted with at least a few of the group of very good players. No attack there against anybody, you are also just playing the game like I do.
However, with a pool that small and filled with quite a lot of very powerful sharks, the small fish will be gone fast. And that's where we are, imo, at the moment in Disco snub pvp. Too few small fish with too little chances to ever even become bigger because frustration deters even getting to the stage of "let's become better, I can do this."
Furthermore, the new 2-hour-death-rule sucks. It punishes those who are bad and makes losing fights even more painful by adding unnecessary punishment. It discourages the attitude that I tried to instill in new members "just throw yourself into every fight you see". I even see it in myself. I avoid fights when I know that dying would kill off what I want to do afterwards by 2 hour rule. Revert that one, asap. It does not add anything, but discourages a healthy "just go for it even if you explode" attitude to pvp.
Tunderer Wrote:If the newbie doesn't even drop the vet's shield, the newbie won't have fun, but if he does any damage, if he makes at least a small contribution to the fight, that is when everything changes. Players who feel useless will quit, players who feel useful will stay.
That's what I meant when I said that pvp balancing needs to make snub pvp more inclusive so that more people actually do it, more newbies are in the pool and stay in the pool, and less players just go "ye, I'm *****, won't do it, is no fun. I'll just trade (and then leave silently when pvp becomes the real currency)".
Of course many veterans and likely most aces likely do not care for those who "are not determined enough to actually put effort into it", but even those should realize that a full arena is better than an empty one, and that the good, big fights in the past were good and big because more players actually participated in them.
This pretty much sums up my own experience with PvP. I have been here with pauses for some time now, and I get the feeling, that every time I try to PvP, the rules are changed before I can get the grip. Last time I tried, it looked rather good, I was having motivation to get better. Then Torps were removed and AUX slot come in, at which point I gave up, again.
So I will stick with POBs and possibly try CAPs, which is expensive AF and requires more in terms of RP.
Quote:There is also a change I suggested some time on TS and it is to implement guns that are copies of some existing weapons (Flashpoint, PG, Heavy Flashpoint), but they take no energy and do less damage. The DPS drop should be significant (about 50%) so that someone using the regular version of the gun and hitting every shot does more DPS than someone using the no energy one.
I'd like that.
What's more, I'd like to have missiles being mountable on regular fighter slots. Cuz the variety of loadouts. If someone wants to go full missile, let him do it, who cares that he'll get killed with 2 properly placed CDs. I also agree with some Jack's points.
Also, make the game appealing for both sides of the medal. Otherwise, the 44 players at 20 UTC might get even more reduced. Saying this as someone who remembers having 120+ players online at that time. And don't say that it's RL which kills the numbers, it does, but it isn't the only and most important factor.
tl : dr
The discussion is pointless. Issue's already been highlighted and that's all.
(09-12-2017, 10:41 AM)Karlotta Wrote: I read it all, and none of the things written there were unknown to me.
I dont want anyone to play the game for me.
I dont want you to give me private lessons.
I dont think you would beat me that easily.
I dont suck at pvp.
I've given private lessons to lots of people, and I've written pvp tutorials.
Please spend 30 minutes telling everyone about all your tricks, and all the ways to counter them, and all the ways to beat you.
Go.
Sounds familiar? Because it does not sound to me like you are commenting on "aces" being assholes to newbies or on whether the sidewinder is a good or bad tool.
Nobody is entitled to victory, regardless of spending 1 hour in their lifetime training or 1 hour per day. What they are entitled to is to optimize their training if they want to improve and get better, and I have burned myself over providing the most simple and effective tools for doing so, ranging from ingame "private lessons" to dozens of videos recorded in a ***** 30fps laptop and going as far as writing throughly detailed guides on what I do that lets me survive situations other people don't and applying and countering mechanics and techniques most people can't even do properly.
I know you are not calling me out in particular, but there is little else that can be added to make the learning experience easier for new players, minus arguiably advertising these guides and making them more visible to people.
The point is, people who want to improve have all the tools at their disposal to do so. This was not a problem in 2011 when there were 0 guides of this kind and "aces" geniuly avoided explaining people what sliding was or how it worked.
If you think the material available is not good enough then go do better than I did. Even feel free to record yourself in the best setup possible doing what I explain in the guides to show video examples if you are so inclined, I will do everything I can to help you out in doing so.
If you are not going to do so then you are no better than any of these "aces" you so despise and you have no right to call anyone out over anything.
I despise no-one. That's you talking.
Also, what if there is someone who did more tutoring than you?
Does that mean you have no right to call me out?
I wrote my tutorial in 2010. Although it was on another server, I think I recall there were already other tutorials on this server back then. Mine wasnt about how to win a 1 on 1 duel with an ace after 1 year training (which seems to be the focus of yours and others). It was about how to stay alive and be somewhat effective in a snub in general. How to dodge, how to save shields, how to quick-dock, how to ration energy, how to assess your chances in a fight before it starts.
But to answer your request:
My main trick is to shieldrun and hope the other guy doesn't have missiles or debs. The best way to counter that is to have missiles or debs. I also like to CD people and blow their mines up in their face. The best way to counter that is to nerf CDs. And then I like to shoot missiles, just at the right moment. The best way to counter that is to get gud at CDing me in my face and not shieldrunning. Or you could also nerf missiles, I suppose. Took less than 30 minutes. (/joke)
As you correctly stated, my comment was not directed at you. Either way I didnt mean it as a a competition about who did more or when (I'm assuming Wesker trains RHA like most train their own people).
The issue is about actively giving the other side a chance to win (in this example helping them to "get gud"), which is already the losing side, if you expect them to play on your terms (like not use missiles, not use greater numbers, not use caps).
It doesnt matter if that's done by training them, balancing fights for skill level too and not only in numbers and ship class, or balancing gear so people who only fight noobs together with other aces dont become unkillable.
The "get gud" argument applied to training is like saying "get caps too" or "get numbers too" to counter accusations of gank.
Fact is, the other side just doesnt have what it takes to win in those situations, and possibly doesnt want to fly caps or get a TS-squad, just like they dont want to spend 100 hours in conn.
In case you still wonder why in the world anyone in their right minds would ever want 5 noobs to *gasp* have a slightly better chance to win against a single ace:
-Personally, I don't care about an ace's enjoyment more than for the enjoyment of the other 5 people. If that sounded incredibly hateful to you, note the words MORE THAN after "enjoyment". I understand that people who have many ace friends and no pvp-noob friends may see it differently from me, and Iacknowledge that there may be legit reasons to cater to long term players rather than short term players. However losing at pvp here does not only mean losing a point in something you chose to partake in, but it often also means getting removed from something you enjoyed doing by something you didnt enjoy doing by someone who's purposely being a prick (most times people who tell people to "get gud" are perceived that way). I speak these words not out of spite to aces, but so that may consider that they are not more important players simply because they are good at pvp. Amen.
-If players should accept that they can die in pvp, so should skilled players. I understand that players who spent months practicing for hours every day so that they don't die are likely to not accept death as easily as others, but I utter these words in the hope that they accept death-by-incoming-missile in a game more easily nevertheless. Amen.
-Tactics matter, not only skill, in most games. Skill shouldnt let you win in every single situation, no matter how much your tactics suck, no matter how much your attitude sucks, no matter how frustrating it is for the others. Amen.
-Then there is also the little detail (not very important) that it seems to me (and not only to me, as I was told about this by others) that amazing skill with guns, as well as amazing turning and dodging skills, seem easier to... erm... "simulate" with various client side tweeks and "software upgrades" than server-side missiles. There are also a few semi-"legal" tweaks which are not talked about in most tutorials. I speak not these words to accuse everyone whose amazing skills win them 5vs1s on a regular basis of cheating. But I utter them so that people remember that this is what inexplicably amazing skills that make you unkillable look like, and feel like, to many people. Amen.
So all in all, balancing things so some people are totally unkillable to 95% of the server population even if they piled onto them in a 1 to 5 ratio (while the other 5% fly mostly on the same side) seems like a very bad idea to me personally.
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