ZOI Shenanigans

[Antonio]

If anything, Outcasts should lose ZoI in Liberty or at the very least lose the ability to bring capital ships there.

Since we're being forced to live with the concept of POBs in mining fields and POBs as a whole: how exactly would you propose the Rogues deal with a Core2 shielded base without allied capitals with cerbs if this were to be implimented?

Contrary to popular belief, Scyllas are pretty useful in a base siege with enough numbers.

To kill a core 2 with Scyllas you need about 20 of them and it'd take 6 hours. Reutlingen siege had about 20 Jorms and a lot of people were motivated to siege it. Sieging a core 3+ is pretty much out of the question as well, I've no idea why you would even think of sieging a POB with Scyllas.

---

SNAC Montage Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Thruster SNAC

[Giorgio]

Corsairs cannot go to New Berlin, Munich (not sure)

They are indeed able to go to Munich, and they even have zoi in Frankfurt where they also have a base. Do a read-up before arguing for the sake of arguing.

You are arguing for sake of arguing. I just stated that it is dumb to add more systems to the faction with biggest ZoI in Sirius. And then you take out Corsair ZoI which is even smaller than I thought and you compared like if they had same ZoI.

That's what's irritating me beyond limits. You complain that Corsairs shouldn't invade London in case Casts would lose Liberty as ZoI, yet you can still go to Tokyo or London. 3 Capital systems for Outcasts, one for Corsairs. So stop pullting out that **** about "If u nerf Outcast ZoI then nerf Sair one as well"

What you are saying is completely wrong. You say Sairs can't go to Munich, which is not true. You say the OCs can't go through Kepler, which is not true. You try to compare the Liberty Rogues to the Outcasts and can't grasp why these two factions are completely different. Not sure why are you getting irritated by clear facts.

[Vendetta]

If anything, Outcasts should lose ZoI in Liberty or at the very least lose the ability to bring capital ships there.

Since we're being forced to live with the concept of POBs in mining fields and POBs as a whole: how exactly would you propose the Rogues deal with a Core2 shielded base without allied capitals with cerbs if this were to be implimented?

Contrary to popular belief, Scyllas are pretty useful in a base siege with enough numbers.

To kill a core 2 with Scyllas you need about 20 of them and it'd take 6 hours. Reutlingen siege had about 20 Jorms and a lot of people were motivated to siege it. Sieging a core 3+ is pretty much out of the question as well, I've no idea why you would even think of sieging a POB with Scyllas.

I stand corrected. Forgot they were changed a while back and only have three heavies now. Unless that changed too.

---

Currently unable to consistently be present in the Community due to life constraints.

Youtube

------

[Laura C.]

You are arguing for sake of arguing. I just stated that it is dumb to add more systems to the faction with biggest ZoI in Sirius. And then you take out Corsair ZoI which is even smaller than I thought and you compared like if they had same ZoI.

Y'know I actually looked at the Corsair ZOI myself, and I actually didn't know they don't have access to all of Rheinland-- which just strikes me as silly given both the lore and the proximity between the two factions. I'm no expert on Corsairs though so can someone who is chime in and inform me if there's a reason for the lack of full Rheinland ZOI on the Corsair ID?

Or is this just a case of the staff hating on the Hispania factions again? (iMeme)

I don´t remember reason, but current ZOI is just fine and balanced in my opinion. Corsairs can raid all important parts of Rheinland (mining fields in Munich and Omegas, trade routes in Frankfurt and Stuttgart) to which they should have access while there are no silly moments of Legates camping ten kilometers from planet New Berlin. Way much better than what can be seen in New York with Outcast caps.

---

On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Sciamach]

I stand corrected. Forgot they were changed a while back and only have three heavies now. Unless that changed too.

The long and short of it is: if the base has a shield, you're more than likely going to need battleship cerbs. Not 100% true but it's a good rule of thumb. Last time I saw an unlawful base-siege in Liberty, upwards of 6 Outcast caps were what got it done.

---

[ sci·am·ach ]
/sīˈamək/

A simple, angry man casually working his way through life on a personal quest to acquire copious amounts of street cred.

[Vendetta]

I stand corrected. Forgot they were changed a while back and only have three heavies now. Unless that changed too.

The long and short of it is: if the base has a shield, you're more than likely going to need battleship cerbs. Not 100% true but it's a good rule of thumb. Last time I saw an unlawful base-siege in Liberty, upwards of 6 Outcast caps were what got it done.

Even so, there's better alternatives and local factions that could use more attention. There's nothing stopping someone from slapping 'Battleships' on the HF Indie ID and watching a swarm of Arbiters rip apart a POB. It brings more people into the local conflict and stops the nonsensical appearance of "Death 2 lib!!!!!" Ranseurs that sit outside Manhattan all day. It may not be in the Rogue's favor, but that's the downfall to being a pirate that can engage anything with cruisers. You could even give them Battleships at 90%, but that defeats the purpose.

My point is - Put an end to the phenomenon of Outcast warships wandering off to a distant house and put them back where they belong. We need to build a wall.

---

Currently unable to consistently be present in the Community due to life constraints.

Youtube

------

[Tomas.]

I feel like this needs to be excised from my previous reply and placed here, in big type, so that there no chance anyone missed it:



Cannot bring Cruisers or Battleships into any system containing a Jump Gate with the exception of Sigma-19, Sigma-17 and the Omicrons.



Seriously. People have been complaining about outcast and to a lesser extent corsair caps and an even lesser extent hessian battleships in places they shouldn't be for literally years so why not just add the above line to these IDs and then make their ZOIs make sense? Non-contiguous ZOI is silly - "I can't play my faction until I've gotten where I'm going?" "Just place a base in Kepler, it can't be shot by OC even though EVERY SYSTEM AROUND IT (save Cassini) is vulnerable?" If the ZOI is too large just revise it! ...but don't make us hopscotch and avoid interaction in certain systems because our ID doesn't have a self defense line.

To quote @Gerhard Wolf in a discord: "F*** ranseurs in NY"

Apparently a player request has been submitted to have the ID revised to something that makes more sense. Here's hoping this thread helps that gain traction.

---

[Giorgio]

If anything, Outcasts should lose ZoI in Liberty or at the very least lose the ability to bring capital ships there.

That is no different than Corsairs having capitals in New London. Should Sairs lose zoi in Bretonia then?

Shortest way from Corsair homebase (Omicron Gamma) to New London is four jumps. Shortest way from Outcast homebase (Omicron Alpha) to New York is six jumps if you take the way through Alaska which is however supposed to be top secret system inRP so this way should not be used. Regular shortest way through Kusari is eight jumps. It does not seem to me you are comparing same stuff when Outcasts have to travel twice as distance (including way through one whole house) than Corsairs (which just have to travel through two Omega systems and Cambridge).

The path from Crete to planet NL takes ~16 minutes. The path from Malta to Hattan takes ~21 minutes. That puts 4 jumps vs 8 jumps into perspective.

A corsair battleship fighting alongside GRN in New London against BAF and even LN is a bit of a bizarre sight. That doesn't mean the Sair caps shouldn't be able to travel to NL. But that should also apply to the Outcast caps. The IDs should both stay the way they are or both have zoi capital ship restrictions. The biased fixation on expicilty OC caps in Liberty makes no sense.

[Shinju]

Corsairs cannot go to New Berlin, Munich (not sure)

They are indeed able to go to Munich, and they even have zoi in Frankfurt where they also have a base. Do a read-up before arguing for the sake of arguing.

You are arguing for sake of arguing. I just stated that it is dumb to add more systems to the faction with biggest ZoI in Sirius. And then you take out Corsair ZoI which is even smaller than I thought and you compared like if they had same ZoI.

That's what's irritating me beyond limits. You complain that Corsairs shouldn't invade London in case Casts would lose Liberty as ZoI, yet you can still go to Tokyo or London. 3 Capital systems for Outcasts, one for Corsairs. So stop pullting out that **** about "If u nerf Outcast ZoI then nerf Sair one as well"

What you are saying is completely wrong. You say Sairs can't go to Munich, which is not true. You say the OCs can't go through Kepler, which is not true. You try to compare the Liberty Rogues to the Outcasts and can't grasp why these two factions are completely different. Not sure why are you getting irritated by clear facts.

I mentioned I am not sure about Munich, but apparently you just take words out of context to shed some bad light on people being true. I didn't say they cannot go through Kepler, I just said there is no need for them to add Kepler to ZoI. Ye I just implied your logic and arguments why Kepler and Galileo should be added to OC ZoI on LR ID as an example.

But ey I get it. Not everyone is going to understand stuff people were trying to elaborate for some while. Read it again with this post I've been writing in calm manner and maybe you will finally get what I am talking about. If not, then it's okay. I will not tear myself apart just because somebody is "slow".

Anyway, I stated my point several times and even if you don't get what I tried to say, I am out of here. No need to elaborate more than necessary.

---

"No step on Snek..."

my english is my english!

[Tomas.]

People, please. It's possible to discuss just the facts without sniping at each other.

I don't agree with non-contiguous ZOI for any reason. If the ID isn't allowed to be itself in a system or exert any of their abilities there it makes zero sense that they could do so...further away. There are countless examples from history of what happens when a force exceeds its supply lines or support and they almost invariably end with disaster.

That being said, if the other IDs have the same issue, maybe it's not just the outcasts that need a look. You say LR doesn't have ZOI in Kepler or Galileo? They have at least one base there! What leap of logic would suggest that they then have zero influence there?

All memes about bias against outcasts aside, the intent was always to keep the two factions roughly equal in size and scope, lest one gain an advantage over the other. If the corsair ZOI is significantly more restrained for no discernible reason then maybe it too is wrongly written and needs revision.

Neither faction gets a lot of attention in comparison to house factions and they're still using IDs with verbiage from years ago. It's time to bring them into 825/2018.

---