Rule Discussion: Smugglers and Lawful interaction, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4,

[evanz]

I agree even if a smuggler docks sells off cargo and undocks with an empty hold or legit cargo, fines should still be enforced if they were scanned with contraband. I personally would not speed dock after being caught, would stop have an interaction and pay the fines, dump cargo etc. But i can understand were sindroms is coming from, unless you have proof to back up your claims of spotting them with contraband things could get messy in some situations. For example if the lawful did not manage to get a screenshot of the illegal cargo, and tries to fine a player after they undock without the cargo and no proof they even had anything illegal. If an officer tries to fine them, or they run and an officer/navy/military ship opens fire on the fleeing smuggler, then said smuggler tries to report them for attacking them for the wrong, or no legit reasons. They might not have proof they seen them smuggling, which in turn makes a mess for the admins, and would get the lawful player an unwarranted sanction. Not sure if admins can sift through game files to see what the smuggler has recently dropped on the planet or not. And well if you get a runner that speed docks in time, it is very hard to catch a guncam of the illegal cargo. Many probably fear getting caught due to a possible fr5 from getting caught too much, then get rep hacked on a rep sheet they may have spent many hours building, not to mention on a ship that has maybe been fully mapped as well. I know many feel well if you get an fr5 just delete and start a new character. Not a desirable thing to do when you have spent hours/days/weeks building a character, and like my main smuggling ship would never want to change the name. Especially if it is a name you have carried on a ship for many years. It's a very hard balance between hour far smugglers can be punished and being too easy on them. I know most players would just ask for simple fines paid, cargo dropped. But some officials do like to push for fr5 to be put on ships sometimes. And yes i know that is usually done to ships who repeatedly break laws way too much. But it does scare a lot of smugglers into not wanting to be caught at all so they do not lose the time they have spent on their ship. Not to mention to intentionally fly up to a lawful player "Hey scan me i have contraband!" makes absolutely no sense at all in RP if you are a smuggler. I know i have seen so many players complain about smuggling and smugglers because they feel smugglers intentionally avoid interaction. Well duh that is why it is called smuggling. Smuggling does not mean you want to get caught and try and pvp with a transport against fighters/bombers/cruisers/battleships. That would make no sense at all in an RP environment anyways. But with so many "make bottlenecks" and "remove this and that" like jumpholes and alternate routes so you can force interaction would not work. Would kill off smuggling and probably cause some to stop playing at all. Rules need tweaking for sure like sindroms is suggesting. Some other changes could be nice too, like what was mentioned about people abusing the player list to avoid, or log out seeing lawfuls in an area. One solution i think for that would be to remove the systems from the player list. You can see who is one, but no one anywhere could tell what systems players are in. Would put a stop to many aspects that are abused by it. Examples, smugglers logging to not get caught, they would have to take their chances with the gates or jumpholes. No crappy RP from players claiming "I seen you in our system and you are not supposed to be there" even though the player was cloaked. Then they claim i seen you on long range scanners which is crap RP in my opinion. Your ship's scanner is the only range you should see in RP. It would also prevent those who abuse the player list for shadow logging to go after certain players they like to harass. I know many will complain they cannot tell where all the action is so they can log on a ship in that area. But i think it would make people get off their butts and fly around more, maybe do patrols like lawfuls should be. Meh i know went a little off the main topic, but came to mind as i was typing the first part. So sue me. : )

MY EYES, MY EYES!!!!! WALL OF TEXT

didn't read any of that

on my occasional rare and i mean really rare smuggling trips, i use a freighter for speed and avoid any interaction, because the actual LOOOONG trip and the minuscule profit is not worth the risk

i probably am just bad at smuggling, my "fly time zone" is european when most are logged in, flying a 349 transport just isnt worth the risk to me

[Laura C.]

My opinoin on smuglers is that police players shuld do EXACTLY what NPC police do: "drop your contraband and you may go" (alternativly , pay fine and keep cargo) , not both .

There is no GAMEPLAY reason smugler shuld accept BOTH fine and cargo loss ,so thats why he will avoid any contact and use every dirty trick , curent rules force him to do that .

Offer smugler REASONABLE choice , and he will act resonably , otherwise dont cry why its response is: "kill me it it cheaper".

I almost never heard smugglers say that. They mostly either try to talk their way out of the trouble, bribe, fight or cooperate. I am fine with all of that.

But like I said, lawfuls and pirates should not be put under same category when it comes to rules. There is crucial difference between them - pirate can demand money for any cargo or even from empty ship. Lawfuls can demand fines and confiscation only for very limited list of contraband, and prices of major commodities reflect that.

And people please , dont use "it dont make sense that cop alowes smugler to keep contraband" , many other things have no sense (capital ships cant kill snubs therefore capital ships FLEE as soon they notice snub , vapital ships bigger from planets ,snub can bump in to capital without suffering any damage , etc, etc ,etc) , but they are still there .

So instead of trying to remove as much nonsense as possible from the mod, your logic is that it´s fine to add even more of it? To sacrifice again even more roleplay part of the roleplay server?

If you just have to insist that you cant alowe them to roam with contraband ,make them pay fine(which shuld not be bigger than HALF of contraband destination price), and then escort them to place where they intend to sell cargo , where they will be "forced to unload their dirty contraband" (while player will actualy seel cargo for optimal price, in RP it counts as cargo is confiscated) .

Everyone happy . This way , police will actualy ESCORT smugler to destination, he has lost half of profit , but at least he isbmot in total loss.and he is safe from other cops (but not from pirates) .

What should make cop players happy about this? You think this is why they wanted to play a police officer - to have duty to escort/protect smugglers including slavers for example? If so, think again.

And just technically, you have a problem when smuggler is heading towards another house. Or you propose that for example Rheinland police which catch a smuggler heading to Liberty should escort him all the way to Manhattan and protect him from LPI?

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Phillip.Jokar]

snip

Fully agree on the reasonable choice, but as far as escorting goes what if the final destination is an unlawful/enemy base in-system?

Would you have police/military/whoever controls the area escort a smuggler to a base that's criminal/terrorist/enemy aligned? Wouldn't escorting them out of system or to a friendly base make more sense and still allow the smuggler to either get away with a fine or keeping most of their cargo, while also letting them try again later or through a different route?

I guess my question boils down to: Do you think smugglers should have guaranteed profits, or have to at least TRY to avoid getting caught? It's not like the current server population allows for anywhere to be on lockdown for very long.

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Thomas.Holden | Holden's.Hammer | Hullbreaker.Holden - junker - scrap field enthusiast
Zed.Taylor - freelancer - former privateer assisting maquis
Tradeknight.7 - freelancer - supplying bretonian industry

[Giorgio]

As a sidenote, something should be done about the "levy fines" line on independent police IDs. Right now it makes zero sense for an indie police officer to accept a bribe from a smuggler. Why? Because when a smuggler gets fined, the fine ends up in the police players pocket instead of going to some kind of an inRP fund of fines. It should be more viable for a police officer to accept a bribe of 7-8 millon at some frequency nstead of fining the smuggler 10-20 million since those 7-8 million end up in his pocket instead of going to the inrp fund of fines.

Smuggling profits in general are really low, especially considering most people smuggle in ships with 4.3k cargo or less. Even if one were to smuggle in a corporate 5ker, it makes more sense to just haul mineable commodities from POBs to distant bases and make around the same hourly without all the complications that come with smuggling. The smuggling profits should be higher than ore hauling profits.

[kerfy]

smuggling... bribe a "dirty" cop to "fake" escort you to your destination under the guise of "arresting" you . easy peasy ,, its all shiny.

[sasapinjic]

1.they dont have to say exact words "kill me it is cheaper" , they can just as use: " not gona pay, get lost cop" , efect is same, they dont wana pay AND loose cargo ,so if bribe will not do , they will use similar line to force cop to kill them and spare them fine expense .

2. My logic is that sometimes gameplay has to be more important than RP , this is roleplaying GAME , not just roleplay without game . Both are important part , Whats more important depends on case .

3. Every police in word enforce law and keep criminals UNDER CONTROL , since it is imposible to eliminate crime completly . Escorting smuglers and their cargo to sell place wuld be considering confiscated cargo and ship , just like real police in RL dont destroy , for example stolen truck full of contraband , or ship full of ilegal imigrants ,police escort them to safe area , while drivers/crew/owners are punished or offered deal to help police in some mater or another . They are never punished in full AND asked to help , becouse nobody wants to talk without something in return.

Put your self in position of , for example , man who was cought with stolen car , police asks you to who you sell cars you stole , so they can caought some more people , if they just tell you you will get nothing to help them , what reason you have to tell them anything ? If they offer you reduced punishment, or imunity , you have reason to help . Thats called REASONABLE choice !

4. "escorting" smugler out of its ZOI use same logic as escorting foregin capital ships: "out of my ZOI ,not my problem" .
Law enforcments use same method in RL , it has lot of tearms , depends on circumstances :
exile, deportation , banishment, diaspora, dispersion, displacement, exclusion, expatriation, expulsion, extradition, migration, ostracism, proscription, relegation, scattering, separation...
Sometimes best way to solve your problems is to trow your problems to somone else , and it is very frequent case in politics .

(under 3. And 4. , am not just talking without some expirience in mathers of law enforcing/diplomacy/politics you know )

[Laura C.]

Real life comparisons does not really work in this matter because in real life you do not have a cheap renameme command which gets you away from the consequences once you dock anywhere, and at the same time in real life you have prisons what is "feature" the game does not have.

Also you did not understand the problem with your proposed solution and scenario when smuggler´s destination outside of ZOI where he is caught. If cop catch smuggler in his ZOI, his job is not to escort him out and allow him to escape. His job is to stop him (unless very rare specific situations I do not feel need to elaborate now). Or you think that if a cop see transport full of slaves and captain says "but I take them to another house, not yours", cop should just shrug off and reply "oh, in that case it´s okay, let me escort you to ensure you will deliver those slaves safely" ?

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Binski]

So, here's an interesting tidbit.
Regarding smuggler and lawful interactions - how much protection are we giving either party rules-wise. For example, we all know that the following line:

4.4 Every char must have only one type of ID equipped and they must play to that ID.

is used to cover situations where a player who is engaged by a hostile party combat-docks on the attacker's base. The best example where this situation is very obvious is a battle happening between OCs and Corsairs in either Gamma or Alpha, where a freelancer ID mercinary is hired and, upon getting shot, they decide to dock on their own target's base in order to escape.

Now this particular line has never been used when it comes to smugglers. If a smuggler comes out from the lane and is encountered by lawfuls, they make a run for the mooring point. This is why in most cases and in most manuals you will find that it is more important to intercept smugglers at gates via tlagsnet. Players who fly off the lanes and manage to sneak in are thusly rewarded with a bigger chance to dock before succumbing to enemy fire.

That is, if we assume that 4.4 does not apply to smugglers.

I am more interested in what happens after this has been done. How much protection is the smuggler given rules-wise. Once they undock, they are fair game for an attempt at applying the ''Levy Fines'' line on lawful IDs. The issue here is that at this point the transport is empty or with recently bought cargo.

4.2 Demands should be reasonable and only one monetary or cargo demand can be issued during each piracy interaction.

With this interpretation, we can (again) assume that the player has out-played the lawful forces and cannot be fined for more than the worth of their current cargo. In other words, the lawfuls, presumably, cannot demand the smuggler pay a fine that is equal to the cargo they just delivered. The cargo is long gone, after all. The player docked and the ''encounter'' or ''interaction'' presumably ended.

That is one grey area. The other regards 4.2 in general. In most cases you will see a smuggler be told to drop the contraband and pay a fine. If this was a unlawful ID pirating a trader - they would get sanctioned as you may not in any case issue a demand that exceeds the profit of the player.

I would like this to be elaborated a bit more and, hopefully, the 4.2 rule be amended to mention fines. This would make smuggling less punishing and in turn would allow lawful players to have more things to do in the offtime between Storta raids.



Now let us jump back to 4.3 for a moment. When a smuggler successfully docks at a base, say - under fire by the lawfuls, the interaction ends. In most cases a player will log off, but in the few times they undock - the lawful party opens up on them as if the interaction continues. If not - they are fined and the situation as described above resumes.

The question in this case is if docking under fire for a smuggler 'concludes' the engagement. Or will they fair game if they undock. And if yes - can they dock back in that case, given they are not smuggling anymore and the regular 4.4 would apply. There is a certain video I am in the process of making and double-checking the green team's as well as the community's thoughts on this will prevent unnecessary edits.

As far as I had always believed, if that smuggler is flying a transport, they should be able to undock, and if they do they're fair game. Transports still have exemption, and most smugglers would be using them. I would say freighters would even be included in that, so really if you qualify for combat docking from using a combat ship or battletransport, you can't launch again anyways.

Now, if they had been clearly seen smuggling, a fine is fair still. That is, if the smuggler wants to face that immediately. If they do disappear, forum RP for it is up to how much work the lawful wants to do. If it were me, I'd pursue it. If they have the screens, they can prove a smuggler's a smuggler. If they are still in game, its gotta be legit. So assuming they launch again to keep on their way or just to communicate, just because they dumped their cargo doesn't mean it wasn't seen or didn't happen. But for long term collections, where a smuggler did take that option to log off, it should be done via the forum (like a bounty posting) to pursue it beyond that immediate time period (say 1 hour). Otherwise you shouldn't be able to fly up to an empty ship you saw smuggling 2 weeks ago and open fire or levy fines (unless you screened the proof and posted). That's pretty much the system everyone uses, but has been less common in recent years. Lawfuls should always have the option to add ships to 'arrest' lists (bounty lists) and allow them to be pursued for their inrp crimes.

If a smuggler comes out from the lane and is encountered by lawfuls, they make a run for the mooring point. This is why in most cases and in most manuals you will find that it is more important to intercept smugglers at gates via tlagsnet. Players who fly off the lanes and manage to sneak in are thusly rewarded with a bigger chance to dock before succumbing to enemy fire.

A couple months back I posted Smuggling problems and possible options to help. In regards to the tactics of smuggling, getting them at gates, along lanes, or near the planets/sell points...I suggested an alt dock point on the back side of the planet locations, allowing all ID's to dock (except aliens etc). This would allow for many things to change. Pirate ID's could actually pirate and sell at at least 1 lawful location per region. Inrp I would expect Houses to make such landings illegal, meaning approaching them can get you intercepted. The problem I always believed is that if a lawful is near the manhattan moor, and a smuggler approaches, even from the lane, can't they /nodock? is that still a thing?

So my point was if you don't know where someone might be waiting, you take a chance either way. A lawful could then have to bounce around or act in groups to cover the various ways to approach a planet, with no guarantee on the path. So if the smuggler saw a lawful in system, or even on scanner obviously next to the Mooring fixture, he could try the back route. The lawful could try to patrol, or catch them well away from the planet...etc, and a great number of new possible scenarios pop up around the doubling of your chance to dock, and increased odds smuggler ships will do more than just wait until lawfuls leave. The more they make a run for it, the more chances lawfuls have to get them, as the double the options, means less camping, less lane reliance. In the case of transports getting right up to a base via the lane, and blasting their way past a lawful at the last minute (probably docking while being yelled at), they at least suffer the RP consequences. Even if this is most common, an alt dock point would let players like that up their chances to avoid guaranteed inrp punishment.

And on the most extreme side, if only the alt dock point on the rear side bought the contraband, it would force all smugglers, lawful, quasi or unlawful, to make a longer approach, making it more plausible to catch them before docking. It would also make smuggling in lawful/quasi ships much more interesting!

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The Further Exploits of Captain Antares (August 2015) │ (alt) JonasHudson
*Argo | Special Operative ID (Approved Request)* | Argo Compilation Video
################ *Proposed OF Challenge System* ################
############### The Book of Piracy (Piracy Tutorial) ###############
############### Binski Alamo (Youtube Channel) ###############

[Evo]

The reality of the smuggler vs. lawful situation is that lawfuls have killed their own quality smuggler interaction through use of FR5. Especially with official factions. Nobody wants to smuggle when it means their faction will just get FR5'd.

see: junker hate

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[Excitable.Boy]

The reality of the smuggler vs. lawful situation is that lawfuls have killed their own quality smuggler interaction through use of FR5. Especially with official factions. Nobody wants to smuggle when it means their faction will just get FR5'd.

see: junker hate

Painful truth there.

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