The Order - Future Direction

[Dashiell]

Replying to Dashiell's post:

The bottom line that Order's primary enemies (Nomad conglomerate and your friendly neighbor local house subsidiaries) are all either invite-only or semi-invite factions, either way the numbers are quite limited. I'm afraid there is nothing to do about that, unless you got an idea. Cause I've been pondering about solutions for like... two years I think, and none of the ideas that I came up with were viable solutions for various reasons.

whoah there. I'm not accusing you of anything mate. I know you want to keep a high standard, and that the result is that you have fewer available ships. nothing wrong with that.

but that does result in the Order lacking 'enemies'. again, I'm not saying that it your fault and that you should fix it somehow. we have talked about that, remember? I too, was baffled as how to boost Nomad activity.

it's just an observation of mine, linked to the proposed change in the Order's way of doing things.

Where do you propose that the BHG are obtaining these nasty rayguns from, then? Currently, the only nomad weapons in use by the bhg are on a special RP request basis. With the order and bhg's fleets destroyed or weakened (in rp, i'm not asking the bhg ships to be removed from the mod), the bhg would have very little power in the edge worlds.

There are, of course, things that i cant explain here due to the NDA for 4.86's development. Unfortunately, that means that anyone who is not in on what's happening with .86 probably has no clue what's going on =/ Wait and see is the best I can say.

LIke Agmen said, you are dictating Core rp then. some talks would be nice, instead of shoving it in our face: 'on januari 4th 2010 most of your fleet will be destroyed and half your rp will disappear. thank you, have a good day.'

please do talk to our head honchos about it. it takes 2 to tango mate.

as for the rayguns, I was talking about rp, not actual game mechanics. what I meant was: if the order decides to run, the remains of the Core (assuming we follow the path plotted in the first post) will have no obstructions whatsoever. they can run around Minor all day long, salvaging wrecks and researching unhindered.

and if the Core fleet took such a beating, what would stop the core from pouring new hunters into delta if the Order isn't there to blow them away?

just saying.

edit: I'd like to give an example of what will happen if the Order goes down the road of secrecy.

for a while now, the Keepers have been inactive. the BHG| / Core has also rarely shown its face in delta. riddle me this: what will the Order do in such cases?
no aliens to rp with, no BHG to rp / fight with.

nothing. that's what they'll do. activity in Delta and minor has been low lately. imagine that becoming even worse and more frequent. or rather: the new standard.
and trust me: don't bother with house space. you migth as well rp with a brick wall.

in essence, the changes proposed are pretty good. but I think they are a bit too drasitc.

---

[Laowai]

Laowai.... how long has it been since you followed anything of what's been happening in the mod? Neither Dragons nor Hessians are Outcast allies, and haven't been for a long time... In fact, both of them are quite opposed to both Outcasts and Corsairs at the moment. So I would say this argument has no place really... no matter who the Order sides with, Dragons and Hessians will fight Corsairs. So it's a non issue.

Yup - and yet Hessians can still show up in Gamma alongside Outcasts in unplanned cooncidences and we get "Ah... former allies... well, we're with them - for now" and they miraculously end up supporting each other - My concern is what pans out in game in practicality here - My issue is that practically the only Ally that seems to semi -regularly show up and/or support Corsair players in game is the Order, even if it is the indies - and i wouldnt like to see them suddenly finding a reason to now side against them.

As a side note - Im all in favour of making some changes here - I personally like the Idea of the Order "going back to its roots" as it were, being more covert and far less heavy handed.... but as has been said earlier in this thread, thats gonna need there to be changes in other groups as well, otherwise the Order players could end up being very, very bored.

---

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3289/...047770.png

[Bubbles]

I got a few questions.

1: Why would the Order ally with the Bundschuh or Blood Dragons? Because it was like that in Vanilla? The common enemy... the infected house governments... no longer exist. Because they are near Wilde systems? The house governments had more motivation to help the Order than those pirates.

2: Why does Order need any official allies at all? Thats contrary to secrecy. If they put a dockable Osiris base (fighters only) near the Wilde systems, Order dont need 'official' allies. Where ever they get their info and tech and resources... will be through secret sources from all faction throughout Sirius.

3: Why do Corsaires HAVE to use Osirises? Why do Order HAVE to use tizonas? Because there once was a RP reason? Can't you let go of your little pvp advantages and personal ship preferences, for the sake of simplifying things? Osiris can be removed from Corsair systems in 4.86. If you tell every noob you see he cant use that with that because its not from the same faction, can't you make a little sacrifice and do the same, for the sake of simplicity and fairness? You cant undo RP? Eh... just have them mysteriously explode after the Order/Corsair alliance ended.

4: Do I gather correctly that some Order players were stopping Corsaires from smuggling artifacts where they wanted while they were still allied? WHY??? There is a simple RP explanation which can keep everyone happy as long as the alliance exists: Order gets the good artifacts from the Corsairs, the others get the junk. Why stop them? Only 'because you can'?

[... kur nubėgo?]

Use the frickin' Sigmas, they need more love.

O PLEASE DO THIS !!!

---

Omega Pirates Guild

History of OPG | Antonio "Vilkas" Devivar

[Sprolf]

Eta killed the Sigmas.


Someone tell me again - what was wrong with the Outcasts and Corsairs fighting in their traditional battleground?

---

[Tenacity]

1: Why would the Order ally with the Bundschuh or Blood Dragons? Because it was like that in Vanilla? The common enemy... the infected house governments... no longer exist. Because they are near Wilde systems? The house governments had more motivation to help the Order than those pirates.

Neither the bundschuh nor the blood dragons are your typical 'pirates'. They are political activists who are occasionally forced to use violence as a tool to achieve their ends, but both groups are respectable and have 'honorable' or 'good' intentions. Those seem to me to be far more likely choices for allies than the 'actual' pirates and criminals, which the corsairs and hogosha represent.

Despite being labelled as a terrorist organization, the order is still chaotic lawful at it's core.

2: Why does Order need any official allies at all? Thats contrary to secrecy. If they put a dockable Osiris base (fighters only) near the Wilde systems, Order dont need 'official' allies. Where ever they get their info and tech and resources... will be through secret sources from all faction throughout Sirius.

Just like any organization, the order needs a supply line. Having agents here and there is great, it provides information from areas the order cant actively keep tabs on, but that doesnt provide material to build ships, or fuel to move them. Further, the order is (or is supposed to be) an extremely small group, with only a few thousand members to it's name - and most of those are support personnel, not pilots or officers. The nomads are growing in number, just as they did during the first nomad war, and despite it's technological advantages (which, by the way, do not exist - order ships are no match for nomad ships, I fly both and can easily attest to that) the order simply cannot fight the nomads on it's own. It needs reliable allies to call on when the **** hits the fan, so to say - pilots and warships which can show up and assist in battle, when battle becomes the only resort.

3: Why do Corsaires HAVE to use Osirises? Why do Order HAVE to use tizonas? Because there once was a RP reason? Can't you let go of your little pvp advantages and personal ship preferences, for the sake of simplifying things? Osiris can be removed from Corsair systems in 4.86. If you tell every noob you see he cant use that with that because its not from the same faction, can't you make a little sacrifice and do the same, for the sake of simplicity and fairness? You cant undo RP? Eh... just have them mysteriously explode after the Order/Corsair alliance ended.

Do the soviet union's tanks and helicopters mysteriously explode because they went out of business? No, they're still in use around the world. This is a roleplaying game, and like it or not we have to make things as realistic or feasible as possible. Discovery has a linear timeline, you cant go back and erase things you dont like, unfortunately at times. The corsairs have been building osirises in their own shipyards for a very long time now, and that is simply something we cannot take away from them.

4: Do I gather correctly that some Order players were stopping Corsaires from smuggling artifacts where they wanted while they were still allied? WHY??? There is a simple RP explanation which can keep everyone happy as long as the alliance exists: Order gets the good artifacts from the Corsairs, the others get the junk. Why stop them? Only 'because you can'?

To my knowledge, the order has never stopped an artifact smuggler, not in my near two years of playing as a member of the order faction. The only time such a ship would be stopped is if it was breaking some other law, acting hostile, or causing trouble for the order that isnt related to it's artifact cargo.

---

[n00bl3t]

I discussed this lightly in the OHC Skype Chat. My apologies for being unable to have a full discussion, timezones and my health have prevented me from getting on the computer for too long.

Apart from that, I supported the end of the BHG war, a slight return to more covert actions and an allegiance change. Independent capital ships and pilots must have been discussed, coincidentally, when I was offline. A matter of timing, I am sure.

Faction Right 5 gives you enough power to deal with OoRP players. It relies upon their being evidence and analysis of a player. If you cannot screw up an independent player's day by getting a request passed through, then perhaps what you are doing is wrong.

Anyway, all Order| should be gotten rid of? Did I actually say that? No, wait, I was just mirroring Ivan's death to the independents rant.

Edit: No, wait, nothing about independents was discussed in the OHC Skype Chat from what I can see?

---

Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Blodo]

Yup - and yet Hessians can still show up in Gamma alongside Outcasts in unplanned cooncidences and we get "Ah... former allies... well, we're with them - for now" and they miraculously end up supporting each other - My concern is what pans out in game in practicality here - My issue is that practically the only Ally that seems to semi -regularly show up and/or support Corsair players in game is the Order, even if it is the indies - and i wouldnt like to see them suddenly finding a reason to now side against them.

When did that happen then? RHA never does that, if you say they do then you are making stuff up. If you're talking about indies, then yeah you have Corsair indies going and buying Order Gebs like they own them, despite the arrangements between Corsairs and Order. You also have Corsair indies pirating in Kusari, or pirating Corsair allied smugglers on a regular basis. If that isn't a good enough example why you shouldn't bring indie behaviour into this argument, I can give you a dozen more things Corsair indies do that they shouldn't...

With the Order it's the same case. They don't support Corsairs ingame, they haven't for a long time. In RP they have their hands full with Delta and Minor already. The Order| faction is being neutral in all the wars the Corsairs wage, except the one against the BHG and Nomads. They most certainly are neutral against Outcasts and Hessians. The only one who "supports" the Corsairs against their other enemies are the hordes of indie Gebs who are bored of Delta and think "oh lets go hunt some *insert faction here* since they are enemy of our ally ™".

So how it pans out ingame is completely different to how you describe it. And then there is the other side of the argument, meaning the fact that Corsair indies outnumber any other faction in the game... so if you want to talk game realities, feel free, Corsairs shouldn't have any allies then because of "balance"...
On a final note: please stop thinking about Corsair wars as an exclusive "Corsairs vs Outcast allies", it hasn't been like that for quite some time already, and most of the former Outcast allies shoot the Outcasts just as much these days...

---

On the topic of Order alliances: Their agreements with the Coalition have potential. Would be a shame not to use those contacts to get a bunch of friendlier looks from other factions around Sirius. Rheinland would certainly be covered, the Order could contact the Bundschuh again to maintain a lower profile, than open cooperation with the RRA would give them. After all, they have their own agenda to meet, which requires secrecy.
In Kusari, the Blood Dragons will be very distrustful, but it won't end in open war most likely. Bretonia and Liberty unlawful factions would likely be pretty neutral to the Order. So I would say the policy of relative cooperation in the face of the Nomad threat would work.

Also I support the idea of Order battleshipsstening posts placed inbetween the houses. I proposed that ages ago, should definitely be done.

[Bubbles]

Neither the bundschuh nor the blood dragons are your typical 'pirates'. They are political activists who are occasionally forced to use violence as a tool to achieve their ends, but both groups are respectable and have 'honorable' or 'good' intentions. Those seem to me to be far more likely choices for allies than the 'actual' pirates and criminals, which the corsairs and hogosha represent.

Well, technically they are pirates who are very annoying while passing through Kusari in your trader (dunno about Rheinalnd, I hardly go there)

About their political goals...
The blood dragons fight for the re-installment of some Shogun dynasty. Not exactly pro-democracy either. If their view of 'honor' is 'good' is arguable. The fact that Order and Blood dragons worked together to kill the governor was a pure coincidnce. They were fighting the Kusari government long before Kusari was infected.

Bundschuh... pretty much the same thing. The Bundschuh would be closer to 'good' in my eyes if they fight the militarism and oppression of the Chancelor (assuming Rheinlanders really are the military numnuts they are portrayed as by some RPers). But the fact that they worked with Order was also a pure coincidence, because the Chancelor was infected. But it looks like the Chancelor was infected fairly recently before the SP campain, and the Bundschuh existed long before nomad infestation too.

In both cases... the Order couldnt care less about the political goals of those 2 that you call theri 'allies'. They cared about eliminating the nomad threat. Order bonded with all sorts of people... navy, LSF, Blood dragons, Bundschuh, outcasts, rogues. Wether those people were 'good' or 'honorable' didnt matter a single bit. What mattered was they gave the Order what the Order wanted.

Despite being labelled as a terrorist organization, the order is still chaotic lawful at it's core.

Chaotic?
I didnt have that impression. What do you mean by chaotic?
Chaos=Order now?:P
Do you mean anarchy? (=no hierarchy by its true meaning, despite its negative conotations)

Lawful?
Lawful means you obey laws. It doest mean 'good' or bad' or 'chaotic' or 'organised'. Order didnt obey any laws at all. CIA doesnt obey the laws of every country they are operating in. Sometimes CIA dont even obey USA laws, they either have special laws for themselves or they pretend to obey laws.

The main reason of a covert operation being covert is that it doesnt want to obey the laws of the state or banana republic it is operating in.

Order isnt exactly made of cotton candy either, incase you think they should only mix and mingle with 'good people'. They are in the business of killing, and also kill innoscent people if necessary.

"The ends justify the means" is the only imperative or law the Order lives by.

Just like any organization, the order needs a supply line. Having agents here and there is great, it provides information from areas the order cant actively keep tabs on, but that doesnt provide material to build ships, or fuel to move them. Further, the order is (or is supposed to be) an extremely small group, with only a few thousand members to it's name - and most of those are support personnel, not pilots or officers. The nomads are growing in number, just as they did during the first nomad war, and despite it's technological advantages (which, by the way, do not exist - order ships are no match for nomad ships, I fly both and can easily attest to that) the order simply cannot fight the nomads on it's own. It needs reliable allies to call on when the **** hits the fan, so to say - pilots and warships which can show up and assist in battle, when battle becomes the only resort.

Yes. That is why the Hogosha make a much more logical ally than the Blood Dragons. The Hogosha have the power and the secrecy. They dont live like pirates robbing people to support themselves. The Hogosha can detour resources from the Kusari keiretsu to help the Order, and are a more attractive partner because of their higher influence.
How would the Blood Dragons and Bundschuh and Red Hessians suport the Order? They should theoretically have barely enough material to suport their own cause. And they get it form piracy. How would they ever suport the Order with war material? And why should they?

One main reason I asked about allies..
As we saw with the Corsairs... the ally will want something in return. Did you notice in the SP campain how the BLood dragons tried to get the governor by capturing a transport? THey got Trent to help them and... damn! NO governor! Only diamonds and gold in the freighter! Woooops! Better luck next time...

Would the ORder try to help the Bundschuh, Hessians, and Blood dragons in their polical goals? It makes no sense in the current situation. Kusari and Rheinland are fighting their wilde instead of being infected themselves. If anyone is a candidate for being infected, it would be liberty... fighting the ORder, doing experiments, toleratinf noamds and morphs in NY, starting a war with Rheinland. If Order wants an unlawful ally... take the Lane HAckers (unfortunately they are addicted to cardi too) or the rogues (they are morrons but what the hell).

In my eyes, the PERFECT ally would be Rheinland. Goals... common enemy, resources.
But I doubt that would ever happen because people are too caught in stereotypes, SP nostalgia, and their naive perception of 'good' and 'bad'.

Do the soviet union's tanks and helicopters mysteriously explode because they went out of business? No, they're still in use around the world. This is a roleplaying game, and like it or not we have to make things as realistic or feasible as possible. Discovery has a linear timeline, you cant go back and erase things you dont like, unfortunately at times. The corsairs have been building osirises in their own shipyards for a very long time now, and that is simply something we cannot take away from them.

Well, I think its more likely someone would plant a bomb... I mean... there would be "an unfortunate accident"... in an aircraft carrier or dreadnaught if... I dunno... USA gave an ally an aircraft carrier and then that someone there stops the alliance and goes to attack an ally of the US. If they wouldnt just just sink it directly with an anti ship missile. I think I know how Order would do it...

Thats what I meant with that. And an Osiris has a larger strategic significance and is harder to uphold than a kalashnikov or a tank. But I know Corsairs can build it themselves.

What I also meant... the Corsairs can make alternative ships. Just say the Osiris doesnt meet the needs of the Corsairs. There is no real ingame need for them to fly it. THere a thousand ways you could RP into Corsais not using it anymore.
Thing is... its not done, because players dont want to give up their super-pwnsor ship, even if it adds a kinda weird RP experience... of having someone of one faction use the ship of another faction.
You use the 'oh yeah but I got it in that special way' argument for this case, but forbid it in other cases.
That is what I meant.

4: Do I gather correctly that some Order players were stopping Corsaires from smuggling artifacts where they wanted while they were still allied? WHY??? There is a simple RP explanation which can keep everyone happy as long as the alliance exists: Order gets the good artifacts from the Corsairs, the others get the junk. Why stop them? Only 'because you can'?

To my knowledge, the order has never stopped an artifact smuggler, not in my near two years of playing as a member of the order faction. The only time such a ship would be stopped is if it was breaking some other law, acting hostile, or causing trouble for the order that isnt related to it's artifact cargo.

Thought i remember some peopel complaining about not being able to smuggle artifacts because ORder players complained... maybe my memory tricked me.

EDIT: This is the link that gave me that impression.

http://discoverygc.com/forums/index.php?sh...=36758&st=0

I didnt witness any of that ingame or know if it was a serious issue for the Corsairs. I just remeber that it seemed weird to me that Order doenst have better things to do than confiscate synthweed:P

[Friday]

Eta killed the Sigmas.
Someone tell me again - what was wrong with the Outcasts and Corsairs fighting in their traditional battleground?

/signed


As for the Blood Dragons - they are more than mere pirates. They are one of the few groups outside the Order to have an active Nomad Research Programme still running out of Sendai Research Facility.

As for the Order operating in Kusari - I expect the Hogosha will be pissed at them, and the Order will be obliged to operate covertly in Kusari.

It wont stop the Hogosha relations with the Corsairs (it might even strengthen them).

And you certainly wont see Order ships fighting the Dragon's battles against Kusari - I expect the Dragons would deal with such cretinous behaviour themselves...

---