The hell would I say something like that, or why would I say anything regarding Bretonia with this yellow name.
I have thoughts based on what I have heard and interacted with story about, and things like population re-balancing based on the people who left Leeds pre invasion (which were not reflected in infocards until next patch which is very, very soon). Sprague and Cambridge will have a lot more people, and explain a little how the lost of industry was recovered over the course of the war.
But I do wonder if the people writing Devtonia in their arguments can really be taken seriously, I would suggest not using that meme if you want to be taken seriously.
Thunderer Wrote:Firstly, the OP doesn't name the source from where the supposedly "stupidest thing they have ever heard" comes from. Who said that? Where? Markam maybe? The writing style reminds me of his. On Discord?
The reason I left the name out of the quote as the person who made said quote probably wouldn't enjoy being called out, and to maintain a healthy debate environment I did not bash anyone specifically, but made references to why two particular individuals were hated by a good portion of the community.
Thunderer Wrote:The OP says that the unnamed source said that Bretonia will not rebuild. However, I don't agree. I think the unnamed source is saying that Bretonia will rebuild itself in a different fashion than it used to be. Where did the unnamed source get the idea that Bretonia's rebuilding is not going to last long, I don't know. According to Kaze, a developer, about 25 years would be realistic for Bretonia's economy to completely recover. However, it will take centuries to overcome the demographic catastrophe that was caused by the loss of over a third of the population.
It's possible the quote was either worded badly, interpreted badly on my part, or both, if that is indeed the case than the quote would not be as stupid as I interpreted it to be.
Thunderer Wrote:The OP mentions that the gold reserves of Dublin have been depleted, but this is the first time I have heard this. Maybe they indeed have, but sadly we will never know if this is true, because the OP doesn't name the source of this assumption.
I say that the gold reserves of Dublin would most likely be depleted by this point, considering the vastness of the fields remains unknown in true freelancer problematic scaling, but specifically the Graves field has been mined for a very, very long time, a loremaster could say the timeline for that, but with such a large scale mining operation, with the exception of the minefields, most of the safely reachable gold deposits would most likely be empty due to generations of mining on the part of BMM via Graves Station. Mollys have also mined their field over time, i don't know what level of mining machinery they have at their disposal, but considering the entire field is filled with mines for the most part, I can imagine it would take more time to deplete. I was referring specifically to a theory upon the Graves field and northern field that is often visited by the lawful bretonian side of miners.
Thunderer Wrote:The OP mentioned that Bretonian citizens would go radical over the loss of Leeds. What does this mean? Radical = revolutionary? Rebellious? Possibly. Some certainly would. However, the war was won. One could also argue that they could be jubilant because they are still alive and that their lives are probably going to keep improving from now on. Especially those that survived Leeds and no longer have to live on that godforsaken hell of a planet, but rather on a fairly pleasant resort-level world of Exeter/Gran Canaria. Perhaps they would want to sympathize with the Zoner/Coalition/Corsair population of Exeter, but would they let them? Those Bretonians have just stolen their homes. The Bretonians may wish to be friends, but the Zoners don't, they are angry. And the Bretonians aren't going anywhere else -- because they have nowhere else to go. Leeds is no more, New London is overpopulated, Nottingham/Sprague is a desert that needs to be better developed before it can accommodate more people and Cambridge has anti-population laws so it would retain its maximum food production output to import to New London, Nottingham and the rest of Sirius. These laws have already been stretched to the limit and the planet is producing less food than ever because it has, in fact, received a few waves of refugees, as many as it could. More people on the planet doesn't only mean more mouths to feed, it also means more farming fields to be converted into urban land, factories or just too polluted for crops.
Fair enough.
Thunder Wrote:The ozone layer of Planet New London was likely not damaged by the bombardment. A news article available on Gallic bases, called "A New Weapon Against Bretonian Resistance", mentions that the atmosphere reduces the effect of Warwolf cannons, hence the Triumph was purposefully developed to have VTOL thrusters allowing it to fly below 5000 meters above ground, thus bypassing the atmosphere. The GRN wanted this attack to be effective, so they would not be flying at much above 5000 meters during the attack, if above at all. Seemed like commercial airplane height in that event, though.
Understandable.
Thunderer Wrote:The OP mentions that the attack on New London would leave radiation behind. Why so? What is the source of this radiation? Does the OP think electromagnetic radiation (lasers, in other words) is the same as radioactivity? Physics says it is not. Perhaps it is the warships that fell down together with their generators and possibly nuclear ordnance? This would be more understandable, but having in mind that no armament used in Sirius, except nuclear mines, is said to be radioactive, I am not sure that this would cause more radiation than the nuclear tests, the nuclear plant accidents and the nuclear waste that we have and have had here on Earth. I think that the direct damage from falling wreckages, which resemble meteors, and the explosions of their ordnance, would be greater, but not as permanent.
I was mostly referring to the possibility of damaged nuclear plants, ships on the surface with engines producing radioactivity, Junkers idk. but mostly I said it a little too soon and should've put it closer to the ships falling from orbit to avoid confusion, I don't know the details on most of the engines used for ships in the game from anywhere, but I would assume sky blackening capital ships such as Valors, Overlords, Bretonian battleships and carriers, battlecruiser, just all that fun stuff would lead to radioactivity left behind at the site of their crash.
Thunderer Wrote:The OP says that New London would be uninhabitable, but doesn't name a reason. Perhaps the above was supposed to be the reason? This is a moot point because we don't have confirmed data on what damage planetary bombardment actually causes, except a CNS news article posted by I believe Unseelie, in the CNS news reports section on the forums. This news article says that the bombardment cost about 600 million (or 300, not sure) Bretonian lives and much material damage. This is a lot, but having in mind that New London's population was about 15 billion at the time, it is proportionally a lot less than Germany lost in WWII, so I don't think that this is a good comparison. Additionally, I believe only 3 cities were bombed on New London, while in WWII Germany most cities were bombed. We are forgetting that this bombardment only lasted for a couple of hours, while Leeds took a week. The damage done is great, but I believe that it has been exaggerated by Bretonian propaganda that aims to secure foreign aid and display Gauls as evil. I believe that the worst is yet to come as all those wrecks in orbit start falling down unless they are moved away. Some of them may be too large to burn out in the atmosphere. This will likely not kill many people directly, but it may severely reduce the planet's population and economic output. If you ask me, I'd rather not have my house or my company's HQ on a place where an asteroid is very likely to fall on top of it. I'll move to some other planet instead.
The points about Germany were assuming I was drawing direct parallels from the wars, It's fairly obvious that the amount of Germans killed is far less or whatever you wish to say, it's a single country, meanwhile we're talking about an entire planet, so the number of cities being bombed would for sure be less as they would target only the biggest of which with their restrained numbers as was the case during the connection destroying event. I referred to germany not for deaths or statistics, I simply referred to Germany for how long it would take to rebuild, granted they suffered two back to back world wars, but considering this is far in the future with far more devastating weaponry and on a much larger scale that took out an entire system including it's planet and nearly a second, I'd think the point isn't very moot, it's going to take a hell of a lot to rebuild after that conflict.
Thunderer Wrote:There have never been two mining stations in Dublin. There has always only been one, Graves Station. It still stands and hasn't been attacked during the war. Why? I don't know. I guess planets were more important. It has explosive mines around too, and according to Battleship Hood, mines and asteroids are a bad combination for aggressive warfare involving capital ships. Bretonia once made this mistake and Gallia learned from it, I suppose.
Was talking about Leeds, not Dublin here. There was Stokes and LD-14, which were both destroyed in the conflict within that system. Two full mining stations, that's a lot of economic production, including the main industrial hub for Bretonia that was Leeds, and the shipyard in new London, Southampton, I was referring to those in the argument over how much of the Bretonian industry was obliterated in the conflict, possessing only a single mining station for an entire house is one hell of a kick. (If i'm forgetting one feel free to correct me.)
Quote:"Thunderer"]Mollies and Corsairs wreaking havoc implies Mollies and Corsairs being together. However, they hate each other more than they hate Bretonia because the Corsairs did to Planet Cork, a former Molly colony in Poole, the same thing that Gallia did to Planet Leeds. The British have historically shown quite a tendency towards the "divide and conquer" strategy, so I suppose that Mollies and Corsairs would be wreaking havoc on each other equally.
It doesn't imply anything, it was exactly as I stated, with an entire battlegroup of Corsairs, and the main home of the Mollies being in the same system, it's unlikely current mining efforts are going uncontested, I never said that they'd be working together so i'm not sure where you got that from.
Thunderer Wrote:I don't understand the persistence in the usage of the term "Devtonia". Why is it still being used? Isn't Lanakov himself the chairman of the devteam now? Lanakov is at the head of the Gallic Confederation, he is French iRL and he serves the Marine Nationale iRL. He is the last person who one can call "Devtonia". Or perhaps the quotes were supposed to indicate sarcasm? Sure, some members of the devteam are in some Bretonian factions, but some other are in some other factions, yet the devteam is not being accused of bias towards those other factions. Perhaps it is because Bretonia has won the war? Firstly, this was scheduled to happen years earlier, before the current devteam was the devteam. Secondly, for example, the Red Hessians, despite being a faction of pirates with no considerable population, somehow have a fleet of battleships and were able to conquer a system from Rheinland, a House, and keep it, at the same time keeping the Corsairs at bay in the Omegas and fighting for Aland in Nottingham/Omega-3. Or the Coalition, which managed to destroy a Bretonian fleet, the Stirling's, with an invisible fleet without any representation by an NPC battleship base. Meanwhile, Bretonia lost nearly half of its population and only won the war thanks to its ally, Liberty. Why is there no Dev Hessia, Devalition or Deverty, but only Devtonia? Is it because the Hessians did not win at Aland like they did in Dresden? Should all factions only win, or only lose? Have the Red Hessians or the Coalition ever lost anything in the history of Discovery? I am sorry if this seems like a personal jab, but I am only using the Hessians and the Coalition as examples, as they are the first factions I can think of that have not ever had any notable losses.
Who someone is in real life says nothing for what they support in game, and I wasn't referring to Lanakov in any of this discussion so I still don't know where you're getting this from, Deverty is dead, as Liberty hasn't been the center for deb bias in awhile, i'm not aware of any Dev doing anything in particular for the Coalition, far as i'm aware Hessians as you said had bad blood with Justin so it can't be them. I didn't say anything for what factions should and shouldn't get, i'm arguing realism and logic here, which the current path set in place by whoever the hell did it, (I don't know who which is why i'm not pointing fingers at people) is entirely devoid of.
But yes, Bretonia winning that war was 1, not really winning, blue bois saved them, 2, the end to such a war was atrocious and did nobody involved justice and was simply the sloppiest writing i've ever seen, 3, they're still a powerhouse, which is absolutely stupid because they have no way to be after getting boned so thoroughly, as to the Devtonia part I already responded to Omicron explaining it pretty well to you.
Thunderer Wrote:I agree that the Coalition could quite easily take the system of Exeter now, with the invisible fleet with which they destroyed the Stirling Fleet, unless Bretonia also has an invisible fleet of its own in Exeter. However, I don't agree that they could take the planet easily, let alone that the planetary resistance is relevant. Before the invasion, the population of Gran Canaria was likely over 500,000, but no more than 1 million, according to the old infocard. According to a rumour from a character who you can meet at the cargo dealer's, there are over 1 million Bretonian soldiers on the planet. If the number of soldiers outnumbers the civilian population, then I believe insurrection is impossible. Refugees from Leeds and other planets have since arrived on Exeter and its infocard says that about 2.5 million people currently live there. According to this I assume that most are Bretonian. For a successful insurrection, one would need the majority of the population to be Anti-Bretonian, not the minority. One could argue that 1 million are too many soldiers. The population of New London is about 14 billion. If we assume that 1% are soldiers, then New London will have about 140 million soldiers. One could also argue that such a high military presence is unnecessary, but Kaze said that these soldiers were not sent only to conquer the planet, but also protect it from a possible Corsair invasion. Crete has a population of about 600 million, so if 1% are soldiers, they will have 6 million soldiers.
Considering the fact that I was bringing up multiple people, whatever the coalition has doesn't matter, there is a singular battlegroup guarding Gran Canaria, there are a MULTITUDE of battlegroups that would be willing to work together to free it, maybe not the Corsairs they do their own thing, but the point is, doesn't matter what's on the surface, once the battle in the skies is one it just takes some ground warfare over time with more and more soldiers pouring in until those on the ground either die, or just having no resources or backup, wither and die without support. A battle would be more likely. You can't fight the sky and the people around you at the same time.
Thunderer Wrote:It is not Sons of Canaria, but the Gran Canarian Army (GCA). The faction is led by @Backo. It is a very nice faction, but sadly, they haven't been very active lately. According to the OP's thread, I assume they would like joining. They should contact Vasko if they want to. Besides being utterly belligerent towards literally everyone around him, including dolphins from the Black Sea which he sells on the black market, Vasko is a great dude.
I got the name wrong, was still talking about the same people.
Thunderer Wrote:Hessians again? Why are they always being considered a threat? Because Wesker is good at PvP? Should PvP determine the flow of the storyline? Would this not cause the death of sportsmanship, as every faction will only play to win in that case, and not to merely have fun? Do we want this?
Nobody's saying anything about PvP, and no, Wesker can't take on an army alone believe it or not, not sure where you're getting these arguments from that I didn't make. They are considered a threat because they have enough numbers to be a significant enough threat, to do considerable damage to a weakened empire.
Thunderer Wrote:Although I agree with the OP's assumption that Bretonia should not be able to support the Rheinland Empire in its civil war, as I myself don't know how it would, I disagree with the OP's claim that they are neutral and unbiased. The OP's post is full of caps lock usage, has a couple of swear words and uses the word "Devtonia" for a number of times without a justified basis. I believe that the post is too emotional to not be biased and although I agree that it is not biased towards any faction, I think that it is biased against Bretonia.
You for whatever reason think i'm emotional, not a lot from this community has evoked emotion from me, this not being one of them, it's a simple debate, but who are you to decide what someone's feeling, whether or not they are unbiased based off their wording and poor use of emphasis, it's easier to caps lock than type in italics every time I want to call attention to a specific thing, and being crude doesn't make my points any less valid, Hello, I'm Hemlocke, we haven't interacted much but i'm not a very formal fellow, look at the argument, not the manner in which i'm making it and this will remain a healthy debate thread, thank you.
Thunderer Wrote:I also think that we should not be so attached to pixel objects to call them "assets", let alone use caps lock, swear words or bash other real people over them. I think that we should instead try to make this thing fun. Work together to make a better story that will captivate our imagination and provide an immersive experience, or simply think of what would be fun, and then invent a realistic and justifiable story arc that will make it happen. Is kicking one of the Four Houses until it is dead a good and fun story, or should we make something else instead?
Finally, I most certainly don't think that the new devteam should be bashed over something the previous devteam has done. Give them time, they can't change everything in a day.
Refer to my reply to the previous quote, no real people have been bashed, especially not from the current devteam which i'd much rather have than the previous. They're simply working with the clusterf*ck they were left with, that doesn't mean continuing with this path is the best option, which is why I made this thread, so that people can discuss that in depth.
(04-24-2020, 12:35 AM)Thunderer Wrote: Aland is what happens when you combine ooRP hatred with the storyline. There was personal friction between Justin (and some others) and Wesker (plus his clique) at the time. But retcons are bad and I'd rather keep it as a monument to future devteams of how not to write the story, than retcon it.
Aland is what happens when Bretonian players are upset that they've lost assets and see fit to pull staff strings and make unusual alliances to take other factions' toys.
Lose Southampton? Fine, take Aland from IMG with the help of CR and the Core. Also, ask Liberty to loan you some ships, so that you even get some fleet variety too.
Lose Leeds? No worries, take Exeter from the Zoners.
Lose Harris? Easy fix, ask your CR buddies to grab it for you and hand it back to you after the war.
Lose Gaia? Screw it, colonize Sprague. Nobody's living on that stupid rock anyway.
"But we lost billions of people in the Leeds bombing!" might be true, but also, the things that affect interactions in the game (you know, the part of all this that actually matters, and not who gets to have the most interesting infocards or forum threads) are the positions and ownership of assets, particularly dockable ones, and the ranges of zones of influence.
Any growth that the Kingdom of Bretonia, its citizens, and its players could have derived from having to cope with this loss is lessened or erased by its immediate replacement. Trading a broken Southampton for a working Aland throws away the possibility of Bretonia being a vulnerable house after a long and difficult war, and thus, many possibilities for interesting roleplay and minor conflicts. Bretonia would have to be more worried about internal conflicts and attacks from smaller groups like the Mollys and the Gaians if they were weak. They'd have to worry about the Enclave if they were weak. But no, they get to be strong. No need for convalescence when you are invincible.
The fact that Bretonia as a house is being robbed of its chance to struggle makes it a Mary Sue, saved by one deus ex developer after another -- never failing in any meaningful way and never having the chance to learn from that failure.
Where we can dock and where we can execute the lines on our IDs fundamentally define how we play the game, but it seems to me that Bretonia's players can't stomach the idea of losing things, and so other factions have had to bear the emotional weight of loss for them. Now in the lore Bretonia has everything it needs to start spooling itself back up not even a year after the conclusion of the war, with no somber walk through the graveyard fields to pick up the pieces of the broken parts of their civilization.
No, Bretonia gets to eat its cake and have it too. Of course it does. Bretonia's players are more concerned with looking good in the infocards and having lots of control than actually playing the game.
Very nice addition, thank you, outlined a lot of the problem with the immediate shift I failed to put into proper wording.
Thunderer Wrote:. Why is there no Dev Hessia, Devalition or Deverty, but only Devtonia? Is it because the Hessians did not win at Aland like they did in Dresden? Should all factions only win, or only lose? Have the Red Hessians or the Coalition ever lost anything in the history of Discovery? I am sorry if this seems like a personal jab, but I am only using the Hessians and the Coalition as examples, as they are the first factions I can think of that have not ever had any notable losses.
Yes - the Retconning of Cayman and the shared RHA/Coalition space of Omega-9 (the whole reason why we even had Kamchatka possible in Omega-54 , now isolated), the loss of Omega-49 (Exeter) as actually being a Coalition contested system when the Alvin Katz was moved to Omega-47. The loss of Cayman and Omega-9 also nuked all the RP that went associated to it . RP that actually mapped out the reasonable growth of the Coalition in the Omegas and the logistics between both the RHA and the SCRA. Now its been reverted to being a single system faction for the past 2 years with only Omega-52 and with some now seemingly random bases out in the omegas. Leaving the coalition awkward with itself because of this skewed perspective that the Coalition must of been a single-system and stagnate since forever.
Yet here we are , dealing with it. Although I agree with Binski's proposed idea of roleplaying a faction war system, in particular
Binski Wrote:Invasions, losing territory, and wars in general wouldn't happen until the work had been put into it via the fair opportunities any major faction could use (upkeep of the warships, keeping them in hot zones, keeping enemy bases/WP's away from house planets/moons so they keep their industrial power up).
Regardless of what anyone says in this thread, I think we can all agree that Gallia conquering Bretonia and Bretonia becoming a Gallic vassal forced to fight Liberty would have been a much better ending to the war. Not only would it be - probably for the first time in Discovery history - something different other than the status quo, but it'd really shake up the Sirian political landscape. Spawning from this you could have a Bretonian Resistance Movement, perhaps spawned from one of the Bretonian unlawful groups that are in dire need of development and evolution(seriously, that's the biggest crime of 'Devtonia' imo, that the unlawful factions in Bretonia did not benefit from it at all). This armed resistance could wage war with Gallia and the Vassalised Bretonian Armed Forces across Bretonia the and Omegas (maybe Taus?). Gallia could use its influence to coax Rheinland into dealing with the Resistance, sparking off a conflict in the Omegas. The Resistance could choose to band up with the Corsairs, or perhaps the Hessians. Maybe the Resistance could be presented as a desperate group, and go after Aland and Gran Canaria, although that would undermine their image as a heroic group.
Honestly, I can't help but feel that some of the story progression and ideas Gallia got post-war (defections, mutiny, enclave, confederacy etc) could have actually been better if it was applied to Bretonia.
Really there's just a lot of good but sadly missed opportunities here that could have made a great storyline. Wanting a retcon is a pipedream I guess, and I suppose we have to just "deal with it". But truth be told this string of events has nullified any interest I could have had in Bretonia from a roleplay perspective because it's just so ridiculous.
That's really the crux of the issue with Bretonia right now, at least for me, I loved the faction in Vanilla, and loved it during the tau war between bretonia and kusari, the problem now is that it's just way too ludicrous for me to even consider investing time into, a house that does not invoke interest to players outside of it is a house that locks itself off from a larger playerbase, and in a mod where our community is so small, that's almost a crime.
I have a wish to play Liberty, some to play Kusari, had some for Gallia at one point before the war started ages ago, and have been looking at Rheinland with keen interest with this new civil war and have kept it in my sights in the past. But I just have no allure for Bretonia, and it was such a good house option for a long time and still could be, if the story wasn't just absolutely derailing it.
I don't care if Bretonia lost or won, but if they are to win, there should be immediate effects of winning, more territory, goodies, toys, etc. etc. However, they lost, but immediately got all their goodies and toys back, negating the purpose of the story having them lose to begin with as they didn't need to overcome it, my absolutely biggest problem with the current storyline is it just feels like a massive "Haha, Sike."
Having only joined the dev team after the war, I am struggling to figure out what to do with the mess that has been left as much as any one.
I have honestly as many if not more gripes about the story from the end of the Gallia war and the last 10 years of story development, right from when Gallia came into existence.
I am all for a retcon.
We have a github after all, should not be hugely difficult.
Is that what people want, or do you want us to try to explain the situation better?
Though this will inevitably be torn to pieces as it does not suit the respective head canons.
Best we can do is try to make things make more sense.
Oh, and Bretonia had nothing to do with Imperial Rheinland in a meaningful sense, it was mostly internal Rheinland stuff. Unless we are expected to believe that the BIS honestly had the time to meddle in Rheinland while the house was fighting for its life.
The fact that Imperial Rheinland wants to be friendly to Bretonia is fine though, that is their choice not Bretonias.
![[Image: jVk71cR.png]](https://imgur.com/jVk71cR.png)
![[Image: CNwiaZq.png]](https://i.imgur.com/CNwiaZq.png)
![[Image: 31OwWoq.jpg?1]](https://i.imgur.com/31OwWoq.jpg?1)
![[Image: Lythrilux.gif]](https://sig.grumpybumpers.com/host/Lythrilux.gif)
![[Image: dqsrBM1.png]](https://i.imgur.com/dqsrBM1.png)