Dab,Jul 30 2006, 12:14 PM Wrote:Yeah, you could have a choice between trading stations that generate money, military stations that are very strong and can do enough damage to enemy ships that it can drive of attacks, given the defender the advantage it is supposed to have. Shipyards that you can pick on battleship, cruiser, and gunboat, that maybe can be sold for less, because your faction is building it. These would only be available to factions with home systems, finally giving us a good real reason to get a home system, instead of all these new factions that decide not to, because they can have more members and not be losing anything. But if we do this, it'll be a choice between more members, or bases, cheaper capships, and generated money. The generated money won't make as much as normal trading will, but will make enough to be able to outfit fighters for everyone and new recruits, and for their ammo. Maybe gunboats too. BSs and cruisers would require saving up that money or trading manually. The money could the be given to a faction at the end of ever 2 weeks, amount based on the trading stations they have.
Then there are different types of stations. Small ones, making an okay amount of money, medium sized ones, making decent amounts, and large ones (that take awhile to create, and therefor cost alot more) that make good amounts of money. And then you can buy addons that increase its profit, or buy new stations, making multiple ones, so you can have one per system. BSs for stations would require the same amount of money as, say 4 player BSs. Those BSs will be as strong as stock BSs, which can easily aid players in defense around the area of it.
Then we can get some better versions of system conquering going that works with these things and makes it more doable, rather than the, you fly in and kill everyone and you win. You must, say, nueutralize all the bases or something, or bases have a certain troop amount on them, and the attackers must land more troops than that (the troops would just be cargo room, so a train could hold 4,000 troops). So space battle would be; attackers push the defenders back, and make a safe run for troop transports. Once enough troops have been brought to the station you own the station, and the defenders must either drop more troops or retreat. We could have oxygen be the troops, so people can't just say they made two runs when they didn't they must drop the cargo and come out empty. We would have a spectator being the referee, to make sure no cheating happens. Defenders can keep respawning at the base until the enemy troops take control. Then the defenders have no more spawns and must win the space fight with whatever they have left only, and once the area is secure they can bring in reinforcements and drop troops to retake it. Attackers can spawn however many times they want, but it must be from one of their NPC alignment's bases. Which can be a whole system away even. Leaving the defenders to spawn much more.
That way, the space battle is more about getting troops down in the first stage, preventing defender spawns, and then getting rid of space forces after doing that.
You would have to do this for every base and planet in the system to capture the system. NPC ownership would not change when the station is captured, the attackers would just be in control of it, not own it. Only exception is faction bought stations. They could be captured and turned to the attackers alignment in the next mod release. If they get a trading station, the first 2 weeks would not generate money since it is changing ownership. But afterward it would generate money until taken.
So for example;
SF attacks AW (hey it happens, history doesn't lie :P) and SF attacks, lets say the Freeport in Tau-37 (they like to attack that system) and they capture it. Since it is a NPC base that wasn't player constructed, they do not own it, or get anything from it, except that it helps them project their control on the system. Now lets say they captured an AW constructed base. It would be a Zoner aligned base, as its our alignment. If they captured it, then it would be changed to Bretonia Armed Forces alignment in the next version. And if it were a trading station they'd get money 4 weeks from getting it. which is faster than constructing a base for the next version.
Pirate bases DO NOT participate in system control. Only pirate PLANETS do. Like Malta and Gamma. So if someone captured those, they'd control the entire system, if we did not have a constructed base there. Pirate factions cannot buy system control bases, they can make bases, but if they are 30K or more from a dockable planet they do not count. Anything within 30K is taken when the planet is. Whoever is adding in the new bases decides where pirate bases go, so pirates can't just buy one right next to an enemy and use it like that. Pirates cannot have shipyards or trade stations. Corsair Osiris' are only buyable for Gamma and Delta. Molly Huggys and Outcast huggys are okay for anywhere. Everything else for pirates are outposts and bases like Kyoto and Buffalo. Not a full blown military station like a house government. Legal factions can get military bases however.
'Control' of a system is the same as having a zone of influence. You don't actually OWN that system. Only your home system do you OWN. Like now. But those systems you have TOTAL control of (all bases that are not pirate are controlled by you) you can build new stations. However once you buy it its there, so if the system is completely taken by someone else before the new version, then you lose the station to them as well. Battleships taken are changed. Say AW takes an SF BS (not normal NPC one that came with game, just constructed ones) it is changed from a Bret BS (to simulate the Bret BS' destruction and the Osiris new position there), to a an Osiris or Battlstar Advance, whatever we decide is the main BS for AW. Not sure about that one yet. Because though FP11 isn't in our zone of influence we do not control it, but it is a zoner base selling battlestars, same with Gran Canaria. Or Osiris because Corsairs own them and they are in our zone of influence.
Also, it would no longer be needed to have zone of influence's touching to take a system. Because you can only respawn from a base you control you have to fly ALL the way back if you die, where the defenders do not. Fixes the times when the enemy docks at a station in the system and respawns again and again (everyone in the Tau-37 battle can admit, it was a bad idea...)
This would add a whole new dimension to the server. I can do all of the base creation and editing, and just do a few less systems in each version while Angel does all systems. We would keep a list here of what is control but who. and edit it appropriately. Then one of the server admins would have the job of giving out the money made by trading stations to that faction's bank char. Then there should be a limit on the total profit every two weeks. So really old factions with lots of bases cannot get tons of trading stations and make 2 billion creds every 2 weeks.
If we distribute the jobs in a good manner we can make this work, easily, with not too much work. I can keep track of base ownerships and creation and editing of those bases when necessary. One of the admins keeps track of profits made by each faction and distributes the money. And then at the finish of each version Igiss adds the edited parts into the version being used by OUR server. so we have the normal version, and the server version. It wouldn't take too much work. and I think we can make this work fairly easily.
Suggestions please :) And sorry about the huge post...
Edited by Igiss - split first paragraph into parts, too damn hard to read, but good post Dab.
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I would like some admin feedback on my idea.. Mainly from Igiss.
Dab, you seem to have taken the idea i threw out and made it a monster of a great idea. Thanks, I couldn't figure out how it would work or how to describe it, but ::looking above:: That does it. Great job.
Maxwell.Smart - Blood Dragon, by choice and imprisonment.
Dab, that is pretty damn brilliant. Though the oxygen dropped by troop ships could be destroyed by the enemy. Then again, that could simulate destruciton of landing troops, which would require some attacking ships to protect the invasion troops.
Returning with a Vengeance June 2007 Sirius Universal Time.
We are coming.
Characters:
BDBC-Yamato - Talarca Light Battlecruiser
BDBS-Musashi - Kusari Heavy Battleship (to be stolen)
BDF-Shinano - Blood Dragon Fighter *
FL-Monarch (to be commissioned) **
</span> The 大和, Battlecruiser Yamato, is Admiral Yamato's personal yacht and primary combat ship.
<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'> The 武蔵, Battleship Musashi, is Admiral Yamato's command center and mobile base of operations for his personal fleet. * The 信濃, Fighter Shinano, is Admiral Yamato's personal fighter and reconnaisance ship, used for backup purposes. ** The Monarch is a freelance freighter captained by Bretonian Navy veteran, William Earnshaw Jr.
No, the oxygen just simulates that the ship has made the run between the station attacked and the attacker's staging base. So, say a station requires 40,000 troops to take it, and you have 10 trains going back and forth, than those trains would all make 4 trips between the staging base (buying oxygen) and the invaded base (selling the oxygen). The referee would watch to make sure no ships just don't keep the oxygen, fly away a bit, and come back. Also, that referee would also count the trips each has taken and says when the base has been taken. So the trains should arrive and dock with oxygen on them, and leave with none.
Oh, I see. Sorry, that was me being stupid. I thought you meant drop literally, like jettison into space. lol
Regardless, that is a good idea. *thumbs up*
Returning with a Vengeance June 2007 Sirius Universal Time.
We are coming.
Characters:
BDBC-Yamato - Talarca Light Battlecruiser
BDBS-Musashi - Kusari Heavy Battleship (to be stolen)
BDF-Shinano - Blood Dragon Fighter *
FL-Monarch (to be commissioned) **
</span> The 大和, Battlecruiser Yamato, is Admiral Yamato's personal yacht and primary combat ship.
<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'> The 武蔵, Battleship Musashi, is Admiral Yamato's command center and mobile base of operations for his personal fleet. * The 信濃, Fighter Shinano, is Admiral Yamato's personal fighter and reconnaisance ship, used for backup purposes. ** The Monarch is a freelance freighter captained by Bretonian Navy veteran, William Earnshaw Jr.
This is going to be a long post. But I'll start with one brief comment. Everything that was proposed by Dab is very complicated. How will it work? It's not easy to tell before we try, so my pessimism or optimism about certain things should be understood as theoretical.
Quote:Yeah, you could have a choice between trading stations that generate money, military stations that are very strong and can do enough damage to enemy ships that it can drive of attacks, given the defender the advantage it is supposed to have. Shipyards that you can pick on battleship, cruiser, and gunboat, that maybe can be sold for less, because your faction is building it. These would only be available to factions with home systems, finally giving us a good real reason to get a home system, instead of all these new factions that decide not to, because they can have more members and not be losing anything. But if we do this, it'll be a choice between more members, or bases, cheaper capships, and generated money.
Choice between more members - and bases, cheaper capships and generated money? Well, first of all, why more members is an alternative? Next, about cheaper capships. Right now in Discovery there's only one place where each capships is sold. Each base can have only 3 ships on it.
Quote:So space battle would be; attackers push the defenders back, and make a safe run for troop transports. Once enough troops have been brought to the station you own the station, and the defenders must either drop more troops or retreat. We could have oxygen be the troops, so people can't just say they made two runs when they didn't they must drop the cargo and come out empty. We would have a spectator being the referee, to make sure no cheating happens. Defenders can keep respawning at the base until the enemy troops take control. Then the defenders have no more spawns and must win the space fight with whatever they have left only, and once the area is secure they can bring in reinforcements and drop troops to retake it.
The idea all by itself sounds good. However, it's too complicated. Someone stupid will respawn on defenders' base after it was captured, and all the battle would stop because of cheating? Or the troops - oxygen, well, few places sell oxygen. Where are you going to get it? Theoretically, to ensure this works I should add 'troops' for sale on each station, which won't be very realistic. Although I admit that system battles are interesting and might spice things up alot, we need slightly (or completely) different solution.
Quote:Which can be a whole system away even. Leaving the defenders to spawn much more.
Might be even more than 1 system. No?
Quote:This would add a whole new dimension to the server. I can do all of the base creation and editing, and just do a few less systems in each version while Angel does all systems. We would keep a list here of what is control but who. and edit it appropriately. Then one of the server admins would have the job of giving out the money made by trading stations to that faction's bank char. Then there should be a limit on the total profit every two weeks. So really old factions with lots of bases cannot get tons of trading stations and make 2 billion creds every 2 weeks.
I've skipped a larger part here. What about 2 billion if character cannot have more than 1 billion? This is also a question of balance. Giving billion advantages to any factions - new, old, having 100 bases or having none - is a bad idea. It is possible, again, theoretically, that bases could generate profit. But certainly not much profit. If it exceeds 100 mil per faction per 2 weeks, I'm mostly against cause it's unfair advantage that all faction members, and especially leaders, will exploit.
Now, the most complicated part. Mod editing to track all those changes. I'll sum up my thoughts in a list.
1) There won't be two mod versions - for our server and for everyone. Should be obvious that I'll never do that.
Expansion packs featuring bases is a possibility. However, to ensure that this pack is installed by everyone you need to change exe number version, thus increasing pack size. More, many people don't visit forums and basically don't want to install any expansions because of lazyness and FLMM that will popup error messages.
Therefore, the whole concept of building bases might be more complicated then fun.
2) Changing existing station reputations. This won't be done. If AW capture Leeds, planet becomes a Zoner planet? If SF captires freeport, it becomes Bretonian? Unbelievable.
3) New bases. All stations in FL are carefully and logically placed... well, most of them. I'm sure that for defensive purposes - and just for fun - factions would wish to build up in rather unsuitable places. This will spoil atmosphere that this mod tries to secure.
Basically, a base would require editing/adding several files even if done with IFSO, plus adding infocards, plus adding exclusion zones (if it's in some asteroid field or nebula), plus adding trade lanes if it's lawful... easy? Too far from it.
However, all factions that exceed 8 members (not characters, accounts) must choose an ID. Minimum number is 3. ID doesn't grant control of a system, but rather control of a station. And other stations and planets of same faction, but this control is rather vague and doesn't grant any specific rights.
Next, faction with 5 members or more might buy home system for 300 million credits.
System battles
This should just be simplier. How - I don't know, what's obvious is that attackers should respawn away from defending base and there should be a referee who will count number of respawns. If this will work, battles gonna be ok.
For now, at least, cause there's no model of system control in action.
New bases
I have to say no. There won't be new custom bases... except for...
The future
This is Discovery 4.81 thing. A simple, but nice idea that worked for other mods. Clan systems. We call them factions, so they are going to be faction systems.
Basically, it's a simple system with few objects, making it expandable. This system would have one or two bases and a guardian faction - NPC faction without any specific name. Another solution: it would have one of the existing NPC factions. For example, make a system near Frankfurt that would be a Bundschuh system. Guarded by Bundschuh weapon platrofms, stations and NPC ships. Not simple stations and NPCs, but those who can really hurt players and become a part of system defense.
For this model, base owning is possible (but limited to 3-4 per system). As faction systems are 'apart' from original FL and jump holes to those places are away from patrols, lanes and other objects, we might consider them a private place. This will allow to release patches that would change relations between different factions, build new bases etc.
This solves two problems. First of all, original systems are left intact. Second, faction control won't spoil normal gameplay for everyone. Faction systems won't contain any exclusive items or ships. All items available there will be accessible in other, neutral places like Omicron Delta, Minor, Theta, Gamma etc. So there'd be no more arguements like 'ah, you are Phantoms so don't come to our place' - everyone who's not your ally and entering faction system is an intruder and might be shot at. Should be shot, actually.
On Dab's ideas: I like the thought of pretty much everything you've suggested, with the exception of the troop landing scenario, I think that would be a pretty cumbersome and difficult thing to referee, though I do like the ideas of having to use transporters of some sort in full-scale war.
On Igiss's ideas: The "private" systems is a great idea, maintaining the original feel throughout the rest of Discovery. However, what you're suggesting basically makes these "private" systems exclusive to their owning factions only. What I mean by this is, say there is a system, off of Frankfurt, owned by a Bundschuh affiliated clan like you say. Now, if SF (Bretonian Armed Forces) successfully attack and win control of the system, then there is a BAF owned system off of Frankfurt... this makes less sense in roleplay than BAF taking one of the bases from the original game, and also causes problems with members of that faction travelling through other faction owned space in order to get there.
The only solution I can think of is something along the lines of Connecticut, a neutral battleground where all factions can stake a claim on a certain section, and base defence/assault battles can all take place without interrupting regular gameplay across the original systems. The system would in theory look like a regular skirmish map from a strategy game, bases around the outside of varying strength (depending on how much money the faction that owns it puts towards it?) with their affiliated NPC faction patrolling it heavily. Pretty much all of Dab's suggestions could be applied here without ruining any other parts of the mod.
How about combining the two ideas and make a slight expansion on Badgers idea
How about creating a new conneticut (or using the existing one perhaps relocated on the nav map) which contains 6 (numbers used for representative purposes only) Jump Holes all along way apart. Each Jump Hole leads to a "private" system as described by Igiss (these could be linked to allied NPC systems via JHs eg Bundschuh sytem linked to frankfurt but might create easy travel routes). Therefore attacks on enemy systems could be mounted without flying through other factions/clans teratory and once a system was captured the capturing faction could reach it more easily without the same problem.
PS this sounds a great idea, it would also give mercs a way to find jobs by flying between systems.
My Characters:
The_Laser => A freelancer, exploring the universe and joining in whith anything happening
I'm afraid that wouldn't work Laser, for a couple of reasons: One, it would make the Galaxy Map look very messy, and Two, it would be too exploitable by traders / pirates. This is why I suggested a similar thing to Connecticut, possibly one jump to the North, as Connecticut is accessible by pretty much all factions without them having to travel through another hostile faction's territory.
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