So after reading the warning post https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...tid=206457 about using a cloak to essentially spy on someone which led to the rp being deleted it now begs the question as to what exactly is and isn't allowed to be done under cloak. As is stated in the warning thread, the players involved had asked Staff members prior if it was allowed, but not all Staff were hired equal. So to those staff members who are able to make these calls, I feel its probably a good idea to clarify what exactly can be done whilst Under the effects of a Cloak.
I suspect there are a lot in the server myself included who have never actually owned a cloak and may be considering one for themselves but if Rp in game and on forum that's been done with some discussion with staff (the wrong staff as has now been highlighted) has been removed entirely and warnings issued over using a cloak for snooping it does make one wonder, what can and can't I do whilst cloaked so I don't get into trouble.
I've read through the strings of posts as well. Once upon a time, Discovery was on the path to have a rule written about every specific case. Over the past year or so I've seen efforts to reduce this so that the rules have a more general, blanketed basis. There are advantages for having specific rules for situations as they come as well as having a small set of rules that blanket entire areas. This is why it is important that the community holds staff members to higher regard than normal players as they rule on certain cases as they come.
In this case, Kai sums it up the best. The line of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable is ever evolving so a warning, rather than a sanction, was placed. I don't view the players that did this as trying to be toxic or cancerous (we all know those players who would do this). I believe Kai and the staff that saw this as well and placed a warning rather than the sanction. A line was crossed, the community now knows without penalty
For this specific base, I can sympathize with the base that in role play is hidden. I'm sure some bases are hidden in roleplay for balance of a faction or for the roleplay itself. I've been in situations where I've undocked from a base that is supposedly hidden in roleplay only to find a squad of enemies sitting right outside of it. There is a reason they are hidden - let them be hidden. Too many people here think they are the main character. With extraordinary roleplay, sure. Otherwise, you're only a part of a bigger universe.
So to answer your question, the best thing to do is ask staff members. Eventually you'll build a list of staff members that you can trust. Sometimes the best answer you can receive is "I don't know, let me consult with other admins/devs/moderators to see what they think". And be prepared to alter your plan - there is always room for compromise.
It ain't about what you are capable of, it's about what you're willing to do.
Generally, try to apply common sense here. Spying on people using a cloak is generally not an issue. Spying on people to permanently fuck them over, however, is an issue. When in doubt, ask yourself "Is there any counterplay to what I am about to do to someone else?" and if there isn't a reasonable counterplay to it, it's probably a bad idea. In Discovery, there is no death, so information-based warfare is the one thing that will hurt people. For that matter, for many years intel agency faction have the limitation of not being able to use information gathered in systems out of their primary ZoI to cause roleplay consequences - simply because roleplay consequences are the one and only true punishment.
We generally want people to log into the game. When people do everything they can to punish people for playing the game, this is an issue. When spying on people makes people more likely to not log into the game, or move conversations from public to private channels, it isn't really benefitting anyone. People who play to win will quickly realize they are running out of people to play with.
(01-13-2025, 02:14 PM)Sombs Wrote: Generally, try to apply common sense here. Spying on people using a cloak is generally not an issue. Spying on people to permanently fuck them over, however, is an issue. When in doubt, ask yourself "Is there any counterplay to what I am about to do to someone else?" and if there isn't a reasonable counterplay to it, it's probably a bad idea. In Discovery, there is no death, so information-based warfare is the one thing that will hurt people. For that matter, for many years intel agency faction have the limitation of not being able to use information gathered in systems out of their primary ZoI to cause roleplay consequences - simply because roleplay consequences are the one and only true punishment.
We generally want people to log into the game. When people do everything they can to punish people for playing the game, this is an issue. When spying on people makes people more likely to not log into the game, or move conversations from public to private channels, it isn't really benefitting anyone. People who play to win will quickly realize they are running out of people to play with.
Just to clarify one thing that people seem to be confusing slightly.
While our devs are very respected and valued for the work they do, when Jammi was asked about this, he has given his personal opinion on this matter prior to the RP being posted. His personal opinion does not equal a decision that must be reached through consensus by the mod and admin teams combined. This applies in equal measure to moderators and administrators on an individual level, where our own opinions do not equal a decision being made by the team as a whole. Such things will always be discussed internally and decided upon by everyone present.
We are already looking into ways to tackle the cloaking "issue" when it comes to RP, but until we have something more concrete to share, Sombs basically hit the nail on the head.
Once things are explained in the way @Sombs has done, I'm able to understand the point of view expressed, about why this type of use of secret information is not allowed. All that stuff about that information-based warfare is the one thing that will hurt people makes some sense. It's true that there are tools like the cloak disruptor that could prevent someone from doing that to you, but I don't want to get into a subjective and useless discussion. Points of view are like asses, we all have one, and sometimes you can understand why someone sees something a certain way, even if don't entirely agree.
What I still don't understand is why this is not properly written up in a place where everyone can see it, if the staff is so clear that this type of ploy to disclose others secrets shouldn't be allowed. In my RL I make a living working professionally with laws and I can assure you that the best way to ensure widespread compliance with a rule, or to prevent a behavior, is to make it public. I also understand the idea that the more general the rules are, the easier they are to enforce, but that also create more uncertainty for those who must comply with them.
I know that the warning to this players wasn't a sanction, and it wasn't about punishing them, but... Wouldn't it be easier that the person wearing a cloak to know what they can and cannot do with it, before doing something wrong and have to be warned by the staff? I honestly think the "don't be a dick" rule is too broad and subjective to encompass all behaviors considered by the staff to be unacceptable. I agree that a ruleset that is too complex or specific can make it difficult for the reader to understand. But if it's too simple or generic ends up being too dependent on constant corrections by staff members. Players need to have something to hold on to that gives them confidence that what they're doing is right, or not.
I also think that this would avoid many episodes of drama in the future, and discussions about the decisions made by staff members when sanctioning or warning.
This is where the number one person you have to go to to steer your opinion is the story lead admins - this rigid staff segregation is dumb after you put in a loose system of arbitrary heavy decisions when it comes to warnings and sanctions.
It worked before when rules were clear and more literal and not merely biased personal opinions collated in a vote and enforced under "don't be a dick". The story dev team will by default know better than you when it comes to what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to roleplay.
A good example of bad cloak usage to spy would be to go into locations that are unknown or inaccessible for the cloaking person. Like Alaska, Unlawful bases in and outside Hose space and deep nomad space. Spying is totally legitimate in best put public space: anywhere on the tradeline network, Freeports and similar locations.
Common sense cannot be applied when we have a rules system bordering on a tabletop RPG game in terms of complexity and layering, OORP and IRP repercussions and so on. We chose the rules to be elaborate, then they must be elaborated.
I had to explain to a new player that yes, they can use the givecash command to send money to their unlawful character from their lawful. This was poorly explained in the server rules, you see.
--------------
PSA: If you have been having stutter/FPS lag on Disco where it does not run as smoothly as other games, please look at the fix here: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...pid2306502
----------
![[Image: hiring1.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/13JkWvmG/hiring1.png)
![[Image: 2aD52st.png]](https://iili.io/2aD52st.png)
![[Image: Greed.gif]](http://sig.grumpybumpers.com/host/Greed.gif)
