Rules around Cloak and Rp Clarification

[Semir Gerkhan]

Someone from the staff please correct me if I'm wrong.

After reading several staff members in this and other threads who talk about the same thing, it's pretty clear to me that what has prompted the warning is neither the use of the cloak to spy, nor the "discovery" of Lichtenfelde secret base.

It's the use of the info obtained in this way and its spreading in RP to other factions that the staff has deemed inappropriate, because they consider it's excessively damaging to those affected.

As the staff has already expressed on other occasions, player RP is 99.9% non-canon, so what we players do in RP will almost never affect the development of the story. To say it in some way, canon is shielded from what players can do in RP.

So, from what I understand, the only point here seems to be that the consequences of spreading that evidences would have been so damaging to the affected player factions that it would have practically destroyed them in RP. And that is understood by the staff to be not fun for the players, so this is the reason why the warning has been made. Warning, not a sanction, because it hasn't really been considered that the authors have done so in bad faith.

However, this is only what I understood from what the staff members have explained. I still think that the use of the cloak should be regulated so that there are no uncertain situations like the current one. I see that there are still subjective discussions between players about what is the incorrect way to use a cloak, or when metagaming is done using it, which shows that it's not something that is clear to the community.

A clarification thread, like the one recently posted about ganking, linked to the rules thread, would be perfect for this issue as well.

[Michela Calliente]

So, from what I understand, the only point here seems to be that the consequences of spreading that evidences would have been so damaging to the affected player factions that it would have practically destroyed them in RP. And that is understood by the staff to be not fun for the players, so this is the reason why the warning has been made. Warning, not a sanction, because it hasn't really been considered that the authors have done so in bad faith.

I also understood this to be the root of the problem. Not how the evidence was obtained but the gravity of the discovery. Although the general view - the idea behind it was to simply spice things up between Order and Phoenix. Order could have investigated and ruled out that Phoenix is not actually infected. I certainly don't think Phoenix would be destroyed completely from that single RP but I am more than willing to accept staff's ruling if the basis is that the faction would be destroyed.

Either way - the rules would benefit from being updated insofar as what one can do with a cloak inRP and what one can't. As one of the point from the admins was that apparently there's absolutely no counter-play to cloaks. Or at least a clarification on what are areas/NPC bases that are allegedly completely inaccessible to player. Or how can one uncover infection. In this case, the station is not even the discovery - the players were followed to a station of unknown but alien origin with alien NPC/infrastructure clearly not shooting them.

If the only acceptable ways to discover infection are:
- The Wild purposefully uses Nomad style of communication
- The Wild uses Nomad weapons & equipment

In my view, this needs to be added to the rules or there needs to be a clarification at least. More importantly staff needs to align internally as before the RP was published - the Story Head / Lead Dev was asked if this is okay and it was given explicit confirmation that ''yes'' it is not breaking any rules. Another staff member also said this is fine from a sanction perspective.

[Madvillain]

I also understood this to be the root of the problem. Not how the evidence was obtained but the gravity of the discovery. Although the general view - the idea behind it was to simply spice things up between Order and Phoenix. Order could have investigated and ruled out that Phoenix is not actually infected. I certainly don't think Phoenix would be destroyed completely from that single RP but I am more than willing to accept staff's ruling if the basis is that the faction would be destroyed.

There's a degree of tunnel vision going on in this argument. It is not so much about phoenix as it is about the wilde.

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[Michela Calliente]

It is not so much about phoenix as it is about the wilde.

As mentioned, if the only acceptable ways to discover infection are:
- The Wild purposefully uses Nomad style of communication
- The Wild uses Nomad weapons & equipment

Then the above needs to provided as clarification or added as a rule. We checked the rules and saw no issues according to the rules as stated. We wanted to do even more diligence and to avoid any potential issues and so we went to the Story Head / Lead dev to clarify before posting the RP. Another staff member also confirmed, this is not breaking the rules as far as I am aware. Overall, we were advised that it doesn't break any rules. Apparently, not the case according to other staff members.

If the internal team is not aligned and the rules are not aligned, it is not the fault of the players.

[Seapanda]

It is not so much about phoenix as it is about the wilde.

As mentioned, if the only acceptable ways to discover infection are:
- The Wild purposefully uses Nomad style of communication
- The Wild uses Nomad weapons & equipment

Then the above needs to provided as clarification or added as a rule. We checked the rules and saw no issues according to the rules as stated. We wanted to do even more diligence and to avoid any potential issues and so we went to the Story Head / Lead dev to clarify before posting the RP. Another staff member also confirmed, this is not breaking the rules as far as I am aware. Overall, we were advised that it doesn't break any rules. Apparently, not the case according to other staff members.

If the internal team is not aligned and the rules are not aligned, it is not the fault of the players.

Once again, you were given a personal opinion by a staff member, not a consensus-based decision by the appropriate team. You should be very well aware how this works.

[R.P.Curator]

The Valid point is:
- The Story team needs to put down some concrete rules about RP in game - i.e. the bases which cannot be included in RP on the forums - and a "Why".
A very important "how to" regarding Wild / Nomad systems / Bases RP from a human perspective needs to be included, for the sake of just making things easier for the community and the moderators / admins.

[Aazalot]

So, one thing I will say off the bat. I didn't start this topic to be about the Rp that occurred. There are plenty of places where that is and can be discussed.
I wanted this topic to discuss what the dos and don'ts of a cloak is.

By what I've read from the replies it does feel like its a case of "using a cloak is fine, use it how you want until you use it how we don't want you to" Which is a very inefficient way or being.

Examples that have been floating in my head are things like A bounty hunter using a cloak to follow a target then decloaking, hopefully dropping lines, then attacking. Or a Pirate sitting at the end of a trade lane whilst cloaked waiting on a transport to come through, then uncloaking and doing what pirates do. Are those sorts of things allowed?

With the example of the Noth ship. If i know they are an enemy and i see them go past or know they are in my system and I think to follow them under cloak to see where they go? Is that action itself allowed? As as been said it was what was done with the information more then then use of the cloak so what do we do about the information gathering aspect. If things like that are subject to staff approval could it be done as an SRP/Player Request/Faction Request? Perhaps cloak info gathering has to be done over a period of time without being caught before the information can be used/shared.

I have my own opinions about what occurred but as I say this isn't what I created this topic for. I feel that the recent Rp highlights that actions under cloak are too much in a grey area at the moment.

A question for the Dev's surrounding hidden bases. Is it possible to have an anti cloak field around them? Or a similar counter?

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[Nepotu]

I see people keep saying "ah I see no rules forbidding this and that", but did anyone thought about common sense? Just because you as a player can take a walk in Alaska, have a sight seeing trip in Omicron Iota or say hi to MND in Thurigia that doesn't mean iRP is possible. As a rule of thumb ask yourself, if it was so easy for me as a player to do x thing, why the y NPC faction did not do the same iRP? In the case stated, why do you think Core or Order did not do anything about Licht? Maybe because they can't? Maybe because they don't know about the base? For sure they now something is fishy there but why did these factions not assemble a striking force to see what's going on there? If these factions couldn't do it iRP, don't you think a solo cloaked player ship unraveling the whole mistery in 5 mins is a bit outlandish?

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[TheKusari]

Examples that have been floating in my head are things like A bounty hunter using a cloak to follow a target then decloaking, hopefully dropping lines, then attacking. Or a Pirate sitting at the end of a trade lane whilst cloaked waiting on a transport to come through, then uncloaking and doing what pirates do. Are those sorts of things allowed?

Those examples have, and always will be, allowed.

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[Michela Calliente]

Once again, you were given a personal opinion by a staff member, not a consensus-based decision by the appropriate team. You should be very well aware how this works.

It's not the job of the player to know the internal workings or processes of the staff team. The job of the player is to follow the rules. The rules did not stipulate something was wrong. For extra safety, the team went to the Head of Story / Lead Dev - who also stated this is not breaking the rules. If this wasn't the correct way, they could have advised for us to go to the Admin Team or to tell us ''Let me check with the Admin team''. It's absolutely insane to be putting the onus/wrong doing on the player.

But yes, moving forward before any decision is made - the active leadership will be contacting the Admin team as the group doesn't want warnings or to be breaking the rules.