Rules Change Discussion 1.1, 2.1, 2.2, 2.4

[Frostpfote]

Edit: Jeebus Cripes this got WAY too long.. Sorry, I'm super passionate about this.

A 3.6k transport that's ferrying cargo is no longer balanced in the same view as a 5k transport - but it still makes no sense for a pirate to just kill it without any motive for profit or some other externality that would compel them to exercise violence. If we find someone is needlessly murderhoboting with poor quality roleplay, despite the fact that we have publically made it known that such things are unacceptable, they will be punished.

My thought is this:
Yes, you're absolutely right - It doesn't make sense for any sensible pirate to want to just open fire on a transport hauling goodies. But, what about the "some other externality" part? What if a pirate, such as a lunatic like in Eternal.Journey's example, wants your cargo, AND wants you to suffer?

Yes, this pirate would likely get more cargo if he does not blow the transport up, and instead forced it at gunpoint to drop most of its load. But, if this lunatic-pirate prefers the sounds of pleading voices, followed by an explosion, followed again by fragments of ship showing against his hull.. Your only option at that point, is to fight.

And fighting is all well-and-easy when you have PvP experience, and know how to turret-steer.

But what is a new player even supposed to DO in that sort of situation except pull a "guess I'll die?"


Yes, OK - This sort of situation could in theory be interpreted as a violation of 1.0 "don't be a dick." The counter-argument here from the lunatic-pirate player's POV is "It's what my character would do."

But why would we want to even ALLOW this situation to happen in the FIRST place?

Under the new proposed 2.1 rule, if someone were to shoot a transport (now a combat ship), they could try and hide "being a dick" behind a thinly veiled, possibly flimsy (or maybe even fully-justified) RP excuse to shoot the transport in 10 seconds.
Then the victim has to go through the pain-staking process of:

• Collecting the evidence in a panic situation.
  
• Uploading said evidence to image/video sharing sites.
  
• Type up the report on the forum.
  
• Double-check everything, then submit the violation report.
  
• Play the waiting game while someone from the staff looks at the report, and finds the time to get back with the reporter as to "hey, it's being investigated/handled/we will speak with them."
  

Or, we could just.. Go with the current system, that already sides with the RP'er, that avoids creating a situation where a low-PvP-skill/newer player has zero-choice in getting shot at. A system which, not only avoids creating extra workload for a volunteer staff team, but also still allows the transport to be shot, IF:

• The transport either refused a demand,
  
• Or they were blown up by an ID that can already treat trade ships as combat ships.
  

Like okay, I get it - The Grouse is definitely an egregious example of a transport moonlighting as mini gunboat. So then just.. Make the Grouse be treated as a combat ship by the rules. Ez.

If a transport is used as a combat ship by a PvP ace/vet/competent player, under the current rules, it already gets treated as a combat ship since it's being used offensively.


Also, quick aside about the length of time required before shooting:
10 seconds is nothing, duuude.
Like, we have people all over Europe and Asia playing this game, many being non-native English speakers, and some being slow at reading and typing it. How are we supposed to encourage a healthy Role Playing environment, when those who can't even finish reading ONE of the preset messages, starts taking fire?

IMO, it shouldn't be 10 seconds, it should be 2 minutes, unless a defender starts trying to flee within the first 2 minutes. Even as a guy who ONLY speaks English, trying to read 2 long, preset messages in 10 seconds is strenuous.


Hot take: /1 /2 isn't RP, it's being a dick.
Don't be a dick! If you wanna shoot me, pour your heart and soul out with in-RP insults for 2 minutes before you do it - I wanna FEEL like I've had a fun read before I get blue'd!

I almost entirely agree we this. 10 seconds is way too little for anything but setmessages to be delivered. Make it a minute at the very least with the exception of the trader attempting to run. 10 seconds is the kind of reaction time I'd expect on a pvp exclusive server.

However I do not agree with classifying the grouse differently while retaining its current stats. As suggested in a previous post: Why not nerf it to be in line with other combat transports, or make it a full on civilian gunboat without transport cargo capacity.

The Grouse has been complained about many times already, I think it's time to tweak the numbers.

Edit: Having piracy interactions go from 'The demand has to be reasonable' to 'Well I dunno, just shoot the transport without making a demand' is definitely not boosting the roleplay engagement as much as staff claims they want to.

[TheSauron]

I would appreciate it if you guys could enumerate the gameplay benefits of every transport at 3.6k or below getting 5v1'd by pirates for the crime of carrying cargo that makes money. This ain't it, and I'm saying this as a staunch advocate of nuking transport PvP protections. Let them be engaged, sure, they're capable of self defense. But why pair it with yet another ganking exemption? Why does John Serenity not deserve to have fun in a pirate encounter just cause he's doing a cargo run?

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One MD Admiral

[Petitioner]

The idea is that transports are continually being reworked towards the point where they don't need special rules protections at all, and due to feedback from the balance team the moderators and admins have determined that all (save a few) transports at or under 3.6k cargo capacity are at that point already. The question of whether this is an accurate judgment or not is part of what we're submitting to the community.

However, some kind of change like this is, I think, probably not a question of "if" but rather a question of "when". Special protections for transports have always been a weird and uncomfortable feature of the rules, and quite low-roleplay if I say so myself. I'm sure we've all seen certain people insisting in-allegedly-RP "you have to make a demand before you shoot me", and that bug in the community mentality is just one of many problems created by these engagement carveouts. It's not healthy for gameplay either if transports are essentially made of wet tissue paper, as they were in the past and as something like the Titanic still basically is. Maybe now isn't the right time for this rule change, but it will have to happen sooner or later when there are a whole bunch of transports like the Longhorn or the Bulwark rather than just two or three.

Edit: The idea of nerfing ships like the Grouse that are definitely capable of self-defense and more back down to being wet tissue paper is something I would bet money on never happening.

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Recruitment | Task Force Prometheus | ICN FIRESTORM

[EisenSeele]

After discussion, the 2.2/2.4 transport proposal has been reworked

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FEEDBACK

[Emperor Tekagi]

I got a few points for your new ship list.

• Amaterasu is already listed as a Capital Ship in its infocard.
  
• Why are actual Frigates not reclassified as Frigates then too? They're all capable enough tbh.
  
• What about Hegemons and Archons?
  

[Lord Caedus]

Edit: The idea of nerfing ships like the Grouse that are definitely capable of self-defense and more back down to being wet tissue paper is something I would bet money on never happening.

I think the larger issue here is that the Grouse model does not match the stats it has been given in any way. It does not need to be tissue paper, it needs to be statted properly for a ship its size, which would mostly see it losing core and core regen, not significant HP or maneuverability changes.

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[EisenSeele]

I got a few points for your new ship list.

• Amaterasu is already listed as a Capital Ship in its infocard.
  
• Why are actual Frigates not reclassified as Frigates then too? They're all capable enough tbh.
  
• What about Hegemons and Archons?
  

Frigates remain as frigates and the whole class will just be outside transport protection
Amaterasu will just be stripped of transport status, I guess we can keep it as a pseudo cap without making it a full big C Capital ship
Hegemons and Archons are.... iffy - they're not exactly offensively capable on their own in the same way the grouse (and co) is, could use more discussion

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FEEDBACK

[Lusitano]

many people here probably never really used a frigate in combat! yes they can hold their ground for some time but ... they are a big target, bigger than many transports with bigger cargo hold,and that is fine because armor takes space. but the most important about frigates is their guns, that are gunboat turrets that gives then some firepower, and that is good ... if you hit your target!! try to hit a capable snub player with your gunboat turrets ... come on ... yeah! not easy!! that dispersion is not good! anyway ... i agree frigates should be separeted from normal transports, but don't give then a status of warship or like a gunboat, because they aren't. they are simply armored transports, like dockmasters say

[The_Godslayer]

If a transport is used as a combat ship by a PvP ace/vet/competent player, under the current rules, it already gets treated as a combat ship since it's being used offensively.

The last time I fought a transport (BW transport), the reason they lost is simply because they mounted Charons. If they had instead mounted literally anything but Charons or Iron Hammers, I would have been unable to make any progress in the engagement, and eventually would have either left or died. The Serenity, apparently the most popular transport, can do this. The BWTransport can do this. Any 3.6ker can mount Dulzians and fight snubs, any 3.6ker can mount Charons and fight capships. Bringing the right tools to do the job is, in fact, an important aspect of any kind of combat. The one thing I think transports are missing is missiles for large group battles (i.e large transport convoys). I personally think transports below 4K cargo should either get a set of transport missiles, or should be able to mount a single gunboat heavy.

IMO, it shouldn't be 10 seconds, it should be 2 minutes, unless a defender starts trying to flee within the first 2 minutes. Even as a guy who ONLY speaks English, trying to read 2 long, preset messages in 10 seconds is strenuous.

In the past 3 months, I have stopped 49 transports and 7 frigates across Omicrons Delta, Kappa, Theta, Gamma, and Minor in three factions, Core, Junkers, and Nomads. There is exactly one transport and only one transport, zero frigates, that did not immediately start charging cruise engines again, and it was a Starflier Longhorn. This is a non-issue until powertraders learn how to RP instead of silently running, which will take longer than a few months, and the rules can be edited then.

"you have to make a demand before you shoot me"

Play Nomads, shoot transports, no problem, godspeed.
Play Xenos, shoot transports, no problem, godspeed.
Play Intel, shoot transports, no problem, godspeed.
Play lawful, shoot hostile transports, no problem, godspeed.
Play corpo, shoot hostile transports, no problem, godspeed.
Play IMG, shoot hostile transports, no problem, godspeed.
Play Zoners, shoot hostile transports, no problem, godspeed
Play AI, shoot transports, no problem, godspeed.
Play Maquis, shoot hostile transports, no problem, godspeed
Play Freelancer or Pirate, shoot bountied transports, no problem, godspeed.

There are plenty of ID's to shoot transports without demands. There are roles in this universe, in this role playing game that can and will shoot transports without demands. The rest of the factions don't have a role of shooting transports without demands in this universe. I have yet to hear "you have to make a demand before you shoot me" even on my Junker because the idiots just silently start charging cruise engines again, so I kill them. If you have a different experience, feel free to list it, but all I ever see from these transports is:

Code:

[10.03.2025 07:43:52] TRCC-Geroy: Privet. Cut your engines immediately.
[10.03.2025 07:44:11] TRCC-Geroy: Are you deaf?
[10.03.2025 07:44:19] Ashton.Asimov: hu
[10.03.2025 07:44:23] TRCC-Geroy: Cut your engines.
[10.03.2025 07:44:41] TRCC-Geroy: Alright, then we do this the hard way.
[10.03.2025 07:45:07] TRCC-Geroy: Cut your engines now.
[10.03.2025 07:45:28] TRCC-Geroy: Alright, have it your way.
[10.03.2025 07:46:35] Ashton.Asimov: having fun
[10.03.2025 07:46:41] TRCC-Geroy: No.
[10.03.2025 07:46:48] Ashton.Asimov: hehe
[10.03.2025 07:47:27] TRCC-Geroy: For the last time. Cut your engines.
[10.03.2025 07:47:40] Ashton.Asimov: no need hehe
[10.03.2025 07:48:42] Ashton.Asimov: look he's having fun
[10.03.2025 07:49:29] Ashton.Asimov died to TRCC-Geroy(100%)

Again and again and again. Powertraders don't roleplay. They aren't here to play a roleplaying game, they're here to play space truck simulator. I can play plenty of factions that can't even engage and can only pirate, and still just shoot transports. As far as I can see, all of this argument around shooting transports is a non-issue because it doesn't change a single thing, powertraders will still silently run and lowRP, and I'll still shoot them dead. If anything, it might cut a little time off the engagement because you don't have to wait for them to refuse to RP.

These rules change just about nothing. Nothing ever happens.

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I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.

"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"

[Sand-Viper]

The last time I fought a transport (BW transport), the reason they lost is simply because they mounted Charons. If they had instead mounted literally anything but Charons or Iron Hammers, I would have been unable to make any progress in the engagement, and eventually would have either left or died.

Y'know there's only like.. Pulse Turrets, and Dulzians as the "literally anything but" options, right?

Sorry, just a minor nit-pick.

But yeah, transports atm are basically stuck with "Do I want to deter snubs via Dulzians, or transports/caps via Charons?" I haven't tried using Iron Hammers or the rainbow of aesthetic Iron Hammer clones in ages, but the general consensus seems to be that they're pretty bad for all-rounder transport weapons.

The one thing I think transports are missing is missiles for large group battles (i.e large transport convoys). I personally think transports below 4K cargo should either get a set of transport missiles, or should be able to mount a single gunboat heavy.

Now this would be neat! Regular ol' transports are the last ship class that don't have access to missiles or mines. Until that happens, I don't see why 3.6k and below transports, that have a mere 2 viable gun options, should suddenly be treated as a combat ship class.

IMO, it shouldn't be 10 seconds, it should be 2 minutes, unless a defender starts trying to flee within the first 2 minutes. Even as a guy who ONLY speaks English, trying to read 2 long, preset messages in 10 seconds is strenuous.

In the past 3 months, I have stopped 49 transports and 7 frigates across Omicrons Delta, Kappa, Theta, Gamma, and Minor in three factions, Core, Junkers, and Nomads. There is exactly one transport and only one transport, zero frigates, that did not immediately start charging cruise engines again, and it was a Starflier Longhorn. This is a non-issue until powertraders learn how to RP instead of silently running, which will take longer than a few months, and the rules can be edited then.

I prooobably should have mentioned that the 10-seconds, 2 lines of RP requirement isn't just a transport-specific issue. Typing "Enter, /l1, Enter-Enter, /l2, Enter," as an aggressor's only lines of dialogue is just not Role Playing. It's lazy, and boring, no matter what ship class the defending party is flying.

Gaw dayum that's a lot of silent runners, though.. THAT'S rough!

A rules change regarding removing most transports' pvp-protection doesn't really matter much to the silent power-traders that already spam Shift+W or leave the game on F2 Goto. (Which they would still get if they fly transports above 3.6k). That's why I mentioned "it should be 2 minutes, unless they try to run."
What concerns me is that the few, actual genuine Transport Enjoyer Role Players such as my wife and I, might start bumping into that 10% of a-hole players who decide "Oh goody, OPEN SEASON on ALL transports!"



As a final set of notes, yes - There are plenty of IDs that can shoot some transports (depending on the transport player's faction) as combat targets already. From what I understand, the IDs that can treat any ship as a combat target, tend to have either limited ZoIs (Nomads and AI come to mind), and/or limited ship class choices (Xenos as an example).

But, I'm sitting here, scratching my head, as to why we need to enable every single faction that can "engage combat ships" within their ZoI, the ability to freely blow up more generalized ID'd transports such as Zoners and Freelancers, provided they can come up with some kind of vaguely/barely acceptable RP reason to do so.

Maybe I'm being paranoid - Maybe a test-period using the new proposed rules is in order, like someone else suggested.

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