Let's Talk Fuel

[Kauket]

I wanted to respond with a general point that I don't think came through clearly in the main post. The main purpose of this mechanic is the rp flavor and immersion, aka something that is tangible in-game that you can play around. I can today buy mox as rwx mentioned and pretend I need it to fly my ship, etc. etc. But that's not very compelling, and hardly anyone will inherently understand what I'm doing unless directly told - they'll just assume I'm hauling mox towards some pob.

There are other things which are involved in such a system, like the money sink and the pvp balance, but those are secondary. I guess I shouldn't have mentioned them to focus the discussion better, but I felt that it was important to bring them up.

The main parts of this discussion which I like is finding ways to minimize the impact of this mechanic on enjoyment while maximizing rp flavor. One aspect that I didn't really see mentioned is the ability to cruise faster when you have fuel in the hold, and otherwise everything is the same. This and other suggestions like only system gates/holes eating fuel are what I wanted to solicit.

Of course, it's good to have negative feedback too. But people seem to be assuming that this is happening, and that it would be implemented without any fine-tuning or playtesting. I can assure you that this is just food for thought. I also see a general view that I should play other games if I want to experience this. Well, this may be a bold statement, but I returned to disco because no other game comes close to scratching the scifi sandbox rp itch. Otheriwse, I would be playing it. No offense, but suggesting star citizen and eve - let's get real here. I'd much rather keep iterating on what we've nurtured here, especially with more tools on the horizon from Laz, Aingar, and other folks.

Thanks for contributing, and feel free to keep the thread going!

so roleplay it, it's always been an option. everything is make believe. that's the nature of roleplay.

you cannot just forcefully decide to change the genre of the game because you wanted more immersion to a realism-sim much like star citizen. if you want money sinks, there are better ways about it.

and one of the things this thread has yet to consider is new players, how are they supposed to make money if they lose it from playing the game?

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[LuckyOne]

One way to minimize the impact of this mechanic would be to just have it in uncharted space i.e. Earthart or maybe Nomad Omicrons (and Nomads using infinite power cells)

This could be explained in lore of there being no infrastructure for refueling so managing fuel would obviously matter there.

And it could be safely ignored by anyone who does not venture there.

[R.P.Curator]

Another way to see the impact of this mechanic is not to implement it at all.
Whoever wants an immersive fuel consumption for their ship, can load up HFuel in their cargo, and pretend 1K of flying at Impulse speed takes 1unit of HFuel. Cruise speed > 5 HFuel units per 1K. You know, RP without another added complex mechanic to the game, without system change and all that work implementing something new and troubleshooting it instead or repairing and finishing the overhaul.
Immersive, fun, see how it is crossing the Omicrons. Without being chased.

[James Greed]

Let's not.

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Greedback

[Deity]

Actually, I am rather drawn to this concept. From a lore angle, adding fuel as an actual resource in *Freelancer* makes sense and provides a completely new layer of gameplay that may very much revitalize the experience.

Certainly some negatives exist. Nobody enjoys seeing their gaming session terminate because they overlooked replenishing their fuel supply. New players who aren't accustomed to tracking their fuel purchases will find this to be particularly annoying. Furthermore, it appears to be an excruciating way to pass on mid-fight fuel depletion.

Still, considering the larger picture, I believe the benefits far exceed the drawbacks. First of all, this would establish a new kind of gameplay: fuel haulers, rescuers, or even scavengers waiting for someone to run out. More significant interactions would directly help the role-playing environment. More reasons exist for players to look for one other out, assist, or even take advantage of one another. Sending out a distress call would suddenly be a question of life or death (or at least a respawn), not just flavor text.

Moreover, the economy will much improve. *Freelancer*, despite its strong trading system, battles a lack of incentives once players have made sufficient money. Introducing fuel as a regular cost establishes a good money sink rather than something punitive, but enough to remind you that you are a little cog in a vast world that always uses resources.

Particularly appealing is the notion of rewarding specific ship classes for their fuel handling. This might at long last give ships otherwise collecting dust in the shipyards meaning. The best part is that this seems like a system that would naturally produce more stories, reasons for interaction, and meaning behind daily actions in the game rather than just like a mechanic meant to make things complex.

Clearly, harmony is very important. Ignoring that would kill the fun; there must be a clear, fast, and easy means for someone stranded in the middle of nowhere to call for assistance or recovery. But with careful design, this seems like a change that could greatly improve the whole game dynamic even if it appears little on paper.

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Captain Echo
“Flying free between the stars. No flag, no chains.”

Independent | Smuggler | Explorer

[The_Godslayer]

The main purpose of this mechanic is the rp flavor and immersion, aka something that is tangible in-game that you can play around. I can today buy mox as rwx mentioned and pretend I need it to fly my ship, etc. etc. But that's not very compelling, and hardly anyone will inherently understand what I'm doing unless directly told - they'll just assume I'm hauling mox towards some pob.

You can just RP that in the game right now? I've never described something as an "RP skill issue", but if your own RP is not compelling, that sounds like a you problem in the most genuine way.

There are some very scathing remarks that have, thus far, been held back about the entire idea, including a lot of the nuances mentioned in the original post being lifted/imported from Starsector. This is definitely not as negative as the feedback could have gotten, the people took it easy on you. However, having spoken to the people in question, it seems that this idea was basically completely lifted from Starsector. Don't do that. Just play Starsector instead.

Also, as mentioned by other people already, the community does, in fact, have some very firm and solid memories of devs taking bad ideas and running with it with disregard to feedback.

Of course, it's good to have negative feedback too. But people seem to be assuming that this is happening, and that it would be implemented without any fine-tuning or playtesting. I can assure you that this is just food for thought. I also see a general view that I should play other games if I want to experience this. Well, this may be a bold statement, but I returned to disco because no other game comes close to scratching the scifi sandbox rp itch. Otheriwse, I would be playing it. No offense, but suggesting star citizen and eve - let's get real here. I'd much rather keep iterating on what we've nurtured here, especially with more tools on the horizon from Laz, Aingar, and other folks.

The view that you should play other games comes from this idea being a simulator idea. Simulators strive for realism with minimal suspension of disbelief. Your fuel runs out, your oxygen runs out, your food runs out, your water runs out, silly ideas punish you quickly, and combat balance is basically non-existent because combat is so horribly complex and minute-variable-driven that each fight is effectively a coin toss unless there is a severe experience gap.

Freelancer, and Discovery thus far, is an Arcade Shooter. There are "gamey elements" because it is intended to be a game, not a simulator. There are several horrible punishments of the Arcade Shooter mindset already in place (mass is a great offender), which begin to force realism down your throats at the cost of gameplay fun. It is very real for a heavily armored spaceship the size of an apartment building to weigh more than my ego, and inertia is a very real concept. Implementing it has been horribly unfun, and has removed from the game aspect. If we desperately wanted a simulator instead of a game, we would be playing Kerbal Space Program, Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, Eve Online, No Man's Sky, or any other myriad of space-sims. We come back to Discovery because it is a space arcade. Our goal has immersion included as immersion is an essential facet of roleplaying, yes, but realism is not our primary goal, our primary goal is to have fun in the game.

The nature of Discovery is a continuation mod. Most of us played the original Freelancer, and it's abrupt end with minimal fanfare after the fall of the dyson sphere left us with a gap that needed filling. Discovery is the answer to that question. Ideas that change the core fundaments of the game, like fuel and its consumption, are not good for the game's health. Trying to switch the game from an arcade shooter into a simulator will certainly win you simulator fans, but will lose you your arcade shooter fans. As you can probably judge by the responses in this thread, losing your arcade fans would likely be staff's last decision for the server. Please don't do that.

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I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.

"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"

[Chronicron]

No thanks. Another game with free exploration already did that mechanic when they introduced open space - that being Star Conflict, and this mechanic got quickly scrapped because it was really poor in the long-term by concept.

Imagine if you had to eat for every meter you walked in, say, Counter Strike.

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[Brain_Scratch]

I would not like to have that mech in the game.
It's been too many times I have did alt tab while flying and forget about the game for an hour or so.

[Barrier]

The main purpose of this mechanic is the rp flavor and immersion, aka something that is tangible in-game that you can play around. I can today buy mox as rwx mentioned and pretend I need it to fly my ship, etc. etc. But that's not very compelling, and hardly anyone will inherently understand what I'm doing unless directly told - they'll just assume I'm hauling mox towards some pob.

You can just RP that in the game right now? I've never described something as an "RP skill issue", but if your own RP is not compelling, that sounds like a you problem in the most genuine way.

There are some very scathing remarks that have, thus far, been held back about the entire idea, including a lot of the nuances mentioned in the original post being lifted/imported from Starsector. This is definitely not as negative as the feedback could have gotten, the people took it easy on you. However, having spoken to the people in question, it seems that this idea was basically completely lifted from Starsector. Don't do that. Just play Starsector instead.

Ironically, I have never played Starsector. I mean I've heard of it, but I have plenty of other sweaty crap I can be playing in single player when I have the time for that. If you and other people don't like the idea, fine - but don't assume I'm somehow trying to force a specific mechanic here. It's more likely that the reason it's similar is like I mentioned at the start, space and fuel go hand in hand.

As for this idea that freelancer is just an arcade game, I just don't see it after running events and generally experiencing disco. I've done multiple conn brawls, which are ideal arcade environments: no rp requirement, just shoot, respawn, focus on the tactics. They were quite unpopular. More generally, why don't people just pew in conn all day every day if arcade shooting was this server's draw? You're a vet who remembers the NOrp server, which hardly had any involvement even when the main server was maxed at 200/200 during most prime hours.

That is why I'm trying to think of more mechanics that actually add to the rp flavor. RP involvement is still what actually draws people are the main ingredient. Sure, there are other things they want to have at the same time, but RP as the baseline is necessary. Otherwise, we'd be back to 2008 clans who sweat to find the ideal loadout and just pew each other with the wide array of ships and weapons disco added. Fuel is just the low-hanging fruit, and like I mentioned, all the tools are in place to implement it. But I'm sure there are plenty of other things to consider - boarding, gravity, storage, investments, insurance, equipment mods, etc. etc. And for each of these, including fuel, there are ways to implement them with a minimal effect on the "arcadiness" of the game.

[Toaster]

And for each of these, including fuel, there are ways to implement them with a minimal effect on the "arcadiness" of the game.

So then how would you actually implement fuel and other similar mechanics without impacting the arcade nature of the game too greatly?

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Olivia Sable