5.3 Cruiser feedback

[JadeTornado]

Since the balance team does not make any adjustments to the cruisers, I thought they might be missing some feedback. I'll highlight the things that I don't like about the current patch from a cruiser duelist's and occasional fleet fighter’s perspective.

Some useful links:
Discovery 4.95.0 Patch 4
Discovery 5.1 Dev Diary #3 - More System Changes & Other Things
Discovery 5.1 Dev Diary #4 - The Inter-Class Balance Puzzle
My 5.1 feedback
5.2 "Escalation"
Discovery 5.2 "Dev" Diary - ARMOR PEN
5.3 "Singularity"

Engine Kill and Platings

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Starting from 4.95.0 Patch 4, cruisers became more weighty but also fast for a short period of time. Patch 5.1 says that cruisers are now “shield-tanks focused on hit-and-run”, and the changes made revolve mostly around fleets' fight environment. 5.3 allows cruisers to become hull-tanks on top of being shield tanks via adding armor upgrades.

I’m not happy with EK because:

1. It’s not visible when used. When you’ve added the boosters (thrusters) to Cruisers, it was done real well because of the FX they make while active. From almost any angle, I could certainly tell the opponent is using his thruster, and plan my actions accordingly. Against EKing, I always lag behind to counter or react to it. Instead, I have to constantly CD the opponent on his approach to not let him utilize EK. It is not a fun thing to do, but now mandatory.
   
2. It ruins the duels. Let’s say I agree to spam CDs beforehand. But what if I’m late to do so or I’m a new player learning cruisers? Unless you're pointing your nose roughly at the enemy ship, your CD might not fire at all or start spinning in circles after firing, delaying the hit or not hitting at all and selfdestruct. As a result, the opponent is at your six and you can’t break distance because he’s already pointing at you with his nose. It’s no longer a game of energy and shield management, dodging, long-range snap-off trades, kiting, component sniping, it’s who EKed/CDed better. The EK creates unfair situations when you can’t get anything from your positional advantage than you’ve been creating for some time already; alternatively, despite making a mistake and being in a positional disadvantage, you come out unpunished for no reason.
   
3. It has little purpose outside duels. The only exception that I heard from cool pvpers from CapPVP discord is to bait and evade BS artillery in fleet fights. The rest is countered by a CD shot. I had no problems with baiting and evading BS artillery without EK, so I treat it as an overkill.
   

Previews are disabled due to forums limitations, sorry.

Duels with no AUs No AUs duel	Stronghold vs Stronghold duels Stronghold vs Stronghold
Some more no AUs	Some more Stronghold vs Stronghold And another Stronghold vs Stronghold

Possible solutions, which I’m not saying are the best or would work:

1. Disable EK for Cruisers
   
2. Make Cruiser CD arcs a lot wider, like 180 degrees. So I could hit a CD up close if I wasn’t shooting it on approach.
   
3. Penalize heavy armors more so it would make sense to have an EK on Cruisers as a feature to boost the mobility of heavy armor users specifically, turning it into a different playstyle for example.
   
4. Mines for Cruisers. It resembles your logic on boosting the mines for Gunboats to scare-off fast Cruisers, and copies the playstyle of snubs. I dislike this option for overcomplicating Cruiser pvp.
   

I might repeat myself here, but will add a few cents with Platings in mind. I’m not happy about Platings because:

1. Being a “shield-tank” and “hull tank” (w Stronghold) effectively makes you a full tank, which is still able to perform hit-and-runs, why?
   
   
   Thruster acceleration comparison: Praefect w Stronghold vs Ikazuchi w/o AU
   
   
   Whopping ~13 m/s difference to justify +45% HP, no penalties to turn rate. And you give it an EK on top to dominate in duels. The Stronghold doesn’t change the cruiser gameplay drastically, while after learning to keep the appropriate distance in fleet fights, it becomes a straight upgrade of the ship.
   
2. Not having a plate makes you an easy prey. Firstly, for a plate user (except the lightweight, of course). Yes, they are optional, but why by flying plateless I have almost no chances against a Stronghold due to its stats? Secondly, it paints a huge target on your back for snubs in fleet fights. No joking, I saw messages like: “Snubs, this cruiser has no AU, focus it’s engine”. And it might die pretty fast indeed. Having this item makes you a winner before the fight starts. Maybe you shouldn’t have nerfed the baseline cruisers stats to -10% and make one plating less.
   
3. Should be available in Conn. It’s mostly inconvenient, I asked 44 people.
   

Previews are disabled due to forums limitations, sorry.

Duels no AU vs Stronghold
No AU vs Stronghold
Some more no AU vs Stronghold
And another no AU vs Stronghold

Possible solutions, which I’m not saying are the best or would work:

1. Penalties to agility for the use of platings. Those you can actually feel and would make you do something more than staying 300m further than usual. Turn rates, ideally.
   
2. Reduce the numbers on platings and give them unique traits. So its raw stats are less noticeable compared to non-plated, and adding more depth to ship setup. For example, Laser Reflective Armor from the BattleTech: more def against energy weapons, crits and /2 effect against kinetic damage. Could be made into another rock-paper-scissors that will justify the number of cruiser guns we have.
   
3. I’m not aware what happens in other ship classes, but if it’s the same story - just delete platings, lol. We somehow lived without them.
   

Engine component protection inconsistencies and center mass

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In 4.95.0 Patch 4, faction identity was “the deciding factor while rebalancing the stats of all cruisers”. For 5.1 you said you want no ships to counter each other, and although it was said in the context of fleet battles and ship classes, I believe the same idea should be applied to balance the cruisers with each other.

The engine protection of every cruiser should be reviewed and tweaked, for these reasons:

1. It’s simply outdated. We got new ships, new weapons, new balance. Some models or hitboxes weren’t made with engine component mechanics in mind.
   
2. Unbalanced levels of protection. Some ships’ engines could be destroyed while they are facing you, some couldn’t be destroyed consistently even in close to ideal situations.
   
3. The center mass of engine components is inconsistent as well. Some are hittable while using snap-on aim, others not. You should choose whether it’s a hard-to-hit target that would reward you generously for destruction, hence requiring snap-off aiming, or just a spot to focus fire when the opportunity rises, close to like it happens with BattleCruisers.
   

As soon as I add angular speed (thrusting), he can’t hit the engine being at just 200m away

The first time I pointed this example to Haste, I think he understood me wrong. I don’t want every ship to be the same. It’s good when every one of them is different and requires various skills to use effectively. I just feel that some faction identities are working too well to this day.

Possible solutions, which I’m not saying are the best or would work:

1. Buff underprotected, nerf overprotected engine components. It may be the hitbox tweak, model change, stats in/decrease like you did to Battlecruiser components’ armor in patch 5.3.
   
2. Move the center mass of the engine component on cruisers: a) generally closer to hull, so snap-on aim would work a bit more consistent, b) generally further from hull, so snap-on would work only at ideal angles or against a stationary target, requiring for you to use snap-off aim.
   
3. Make the engine component on all cruisers so well protected, that its destruction would require point-blank fire from snubs or use of lock-on weapons, or softening it up before destruction via adding Fins to all of them, or something else.
   

Weapons balance, hardpoints & arcs

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I’m not sure how to approach weapons balance, because one of your recent nerfs did nothing and the other just killed the gun. Anyway, I’ll name what bothers me the most.

• Rockhounds. They are still very oppressive due to splash damage against 2-component engine cruisers. It deals well with snubs too. I managed to kill those flying in a straight line, for example returning after restocking, with a single volley which they didn't have time to react to.
  I’d try to remove the splash and add other stats if needed.
  
  
• Repeaters. Overall stats make them one of the best gun choices for any purpose. Even if I manage to get out of their arcs, the dps that is applied to me after carries the opponent back on track. I enjoy them as well, but they should have at least some downside. Currently it allows you to sit in place, and hold fire until the opponent is dead.
  I’d try to nerf their turning speed. It’s a magazine weapon, even if it doesn’t seem so due to its stats. The general idea should be to set up yourself, dump the mag, bail out. So make it actually work by limiting its CQB potential.
  
  
  
• Class 8 Solaris. I stopped seeing their role after I realized that a good gunboat pilot simply wouldn't create a situation where he could be killed by Solaris. If he makes a mistake and flies into your fleet - it’s dead and it doesn’t matter if you have Solarises or not. If he plays on the edge and baits you to chase - Solarises can’t do much. With more ranged options introduced, like Cruiser Railguns, I dunno why would I pick gatlings. Energy-hungry, and depending on the target, it might have too much dispersion to focus a component even up close.
  I’d try to make it either more precise or energy-efficient.
  

The second topic is weapon hardpoints and arcs.
I'm worried about how outdated some ships are in terms of hardpoints.

Example 1. With the addition of Flaks, it became obvious to me that there is no dedicated Flak spot on most of the cruisers. You either carry 2 to cover 360 of your ship, which might be an overkill, or 1 with just 180 arcs. Sacrificing a good Pulse spot for a Flak isn’t an option in my opinion. I’d like to see more dedicated spots for a single 360 flak.

Example 2. Light cruisers and their “main” pulse slots. Right now, I can’t recall any light cruiser that is able to shoot the same 2xPulses at all horizontal directions, preferably up/down too. You should either show your front or back to the opponent to shoot both. There is a workaround, which is to place more Pulses, but due to different arcs those Pulses would have, it becomes less convenient to track your energy consumption and choose how many Pulses you’d like to fire. Additionally, by occupying those slots you make yourself more vulnerable to snubs, which is an even bigger problem due to the greater fragility of a light cruiser by its design. It’s a tough choice for no reason. Instead of utilizing a small silhouette and making vertical wave-like motions to dodge incoming fire, chipping away your opponent from mid-long range and being able to control the distance anytime, you have to either face your opponent or kite him, making yourself to commit to brawl you don’t want to or give up a position you might way to stay at, or once again make tough loadout choices. It’s not fair. I’d like to see wider angles on existing “main” class 5 hardpoints of light cruisers. Caliburn example

Example 3. Scylla for its Class 8s which are having a hard time shooting point-blank, although the ship's design favors approaching the enemy. Class 8 arcs on Thresher, which can’t hit a target above/below it unless its hull is directly aligned to the target, not to say they’re bad for CQB. Probably there are more looks at Q-ship.

Comments on cruisers + hitboxes

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Note on hitboxes: don’t be quick to judge, I might be wrong on what I’m selecting/not deselecting on a model as I’m doing it for the first time, and even that wouldn’t have been possible without the help of lovely people at Artsy fartsy Disco(rd).

• AI Cruiser - Engine might be overprotected. Needs adjusting engine’s center mass, snap-on aim is useless. https://imgur.com/a/2xvC4HA
  
• Bretonia Destroyer "Agincourt" - I'm not a fan, but I think it's fine. I'd call it a highly versatile vessel. https://imgur.com/a/CCetezc
  
• Coalition Destroyer "Typhoon" - Class 5 arcs need buff. It's too weak in the hands of a newbie, but too strong piloted by an ace, so it's fine? Real unique due to engines placement. Mirror match. https://imgur.com/a/YKuAEoQ
  
• Core Destroyer "Thresher" - Highly exposed engine, weird Class 7 arc, poor vertical arcs for Class 8 - should overlap more. I struggle to understand what identity it has, because it excels only at long-range spam, which is doable by almost any other cruiser. As soon as something gets close - you are cooked. Example 1, Example 2. https://imgur.com/a/Nn9hIPL
  
• Corsair Cruiser "Praefect" - Engines are vulnerable to splash damage hit from the front at certain angles, maybe Class 5 arcs need buff. Still good, still able to trick inexperienced foes with the use of it's big inertia. https://imgur.com/a/OeVEG4w
  
• Crayter Cruiser "Thanatos" - Highly exposed engine, it's not easy to recover when someone catches your six. Actually, feels like an upgraded Thresher. Old video. https://imgur.com/a/JH3hrVr
  
• Dragon Cruiser "Kagutsuchi" - no idea for now, stopped playing it a while ago. https://imgur.com/a/4UmnVDx
  
• Gaian Destroyer "Caliburn" - Class 5 arcs need buff. It's hard to pilot as you have to be very mindful about your arcs and rolls, but it helped me to get better at it. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone in its current state though. Old video. https://imgur.com/a/foN6FpZ
  
• Gallic Destroyer "Triumph" - Engine hitbox is small, needs adjusting engine’s center mass, snap-on aim is useless. All those flat ships are able to wiggle a lot and it takes more time to get behind them, I believe it would be fine after the proposed changes to its engine. https://imgur.com/a/04TqYrD
  
• IMG Cruiser "Sagarmatha" - I haven't played it ever, no idea for now. Judging solely by the hitbox, it might need help. https://imgur.com/a/EEf0W0Q
  
• Kusari Destroyer "Takeda" - I think it's fine, but I won't object if people say that the engine's center mass should be adjusted too. Another easy to learn and hard to master ship. Old video. https://imgur.com/a/LRWN0zr
  
• Kusari Destroyer Prototype "Ikazuchi" - Overprotected engine. Probably should make those wings destructible/less durable since they are blocking a LOS to engines. Feels the same as Takeda. https://imgur.com/a/4s1xX7v
  
• Liberty Cruiser "Archer" - no idea for now, stopped playing it a while ago. I heard it has a highly exposed engine and the only thing that saves it from random shots is that accordion right before its engine. FWGs are weaker in duels, so I would say currently any FWG cruiser is okay as they're just damage bots for fleet fights. I hope FWG enthusiasts would add something up. https://imgur.com/a/B1UxnAR
  
• Maquis Destroyer "Vouivre" - Engine hitbox is small, needs adjusting engine’s center mass, snap-on aim is useless. Failed to find the model :/
  
• Nomad Cruiser "Siris" - Needs a slightly bigger engine hitbox around its tail. An attemp to kill it via engine. Strong ship for a strong tentacle. https://imgur.com/a/sAcMo47
  
• Order Recon Cruiser "Resheph" - It’s either bugged or needs adjusting engine’s center mass, snap-on aim is useless. I asked like 5 people and only one of them was able to kill Resheph via engine component, I find it alarming. The ship is good though. https://imgur.com/a/o3YygM5
  
• Outcast Destroyer "Storta" - Overprotected engine, lose the fins. If Storta would be left as is, I think sooner or later it would be nerfed to the ground for being too good. https://imgur.com/a/HUVAmoB
  
• Red Hessian Cruiser "Vidar" - Mixed feelings. Its engine is overprotected if you are not using Rockhounds and the opponent knows how to roll. Underprotected because it could be hit from the front in CQB. Seems good, I enjoy it as a fleet support due to its hardpoints placement. Old video. https://imgur.com/a/xbvJrkh
  
• Rheinland Cruiser "Donau" - Engine hitbox is small, needs adjusting engine’s center mass. I guess it's one of my weakest ship to pilot, so I might be wrong in saying that it's just an upgraded Thanatos. https://imgur.com/a/jnb1rZV
  
• Rheinland Pirate Cruiser "Hel" - Highly exposed engines, should not be hittable from the front in CQB. https://imgur.com/a/0dzZedM
  
• Rogue Destroyer "Scylla" - Class 5 arcs need buff. Most weapon arcs are awful, they're not teaching you anything like with Caliburn, they are there to punish. One could say the engines are underprotected, but with enough experience you can partially mitigate it with top notch maneuvering. After all, it represents the faction's identity real well. Not sure if all Scylla pilots have top notch maneuvering though. https://imgur.com/a/s9H7oge
  
• Zoner Q-ship "Fearless" - It feels extremely weak or solid depending on the pilot. I'd assume it might win constantly if you waste too much time on sniping its component, chipping away those huge fins instead. Video example. https://imgur.com/a/JyCqrBy
  

Thanks for reading, love you.

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In a live role playing environment, you are not owed or mandated to be given a duel. Fights develop differently every time and people have varying degree of time to log on their hands or have their own plans.

Cap PVP discord server

[The_Godslayer]

Mines for Cruisers. It resembles your logic on boosting the mines for Gunboats to scare-off fast Cruisers, and copies the playstyle of snubs. I dislike this option for overcomplicating Cruiser pvp.

In the campaign, a cruiser uses his "graviton mines" to explode a jump gate blockade. There's lore precident for Cruisers to have mines, somehow.

Core Destroyer "Thresher" - Highly exposed engine, weird Class 7 arc, poor vertical arcs for Class 8 - should overlap more. I struggle to understand what identity it has, because it excels only at long-range spam, which is doable by almost any other cruiser. As soon as something gets close - you are cooked. Example 1, Example 2. https://imgur.com/a/Nn9hIPL

I have found Threshers to be entirely unhittable even at effectively point-blank ranges due to simply strafing side to side and the insane flatness of their hitbox. They can show their engine to you for the whole fight, but as long as they have left and right strafe keys you won't hit them at all.

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I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.

"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"

[Lord Caedus]

Mines for Cruisers. It resembles your logic on boosting the mines for Gunboats to scare-off fast Cruisers, and copies the playstyle of snubs. I dislike this option for overcomplicating Cruiser pvp.

In the campaign, a cruiser uses his "graviton mines" to explode a jump gate blockade. There's lore precident for Cruisers to have mines, somehow.

If you go back and listen closely, Walker specifies that the mines are all in the cargo hold, and we can infer that they were probably being deployed as part of his operations against Rheinland supply depots he mentions earlier when first meeting up with Trent. You can also hear him say that the mines are being armed while still inside of the ship during his run in towards the Texas and Arizona. This is very much a case of "We have a bunch of explosives in the cargo storage of the ship and we're going to set them to explode which is very much not their intended use case", not a case of "We normally have these mines to be used in normal combat situations."

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[EisenSeele]

"Ugg find stick, hit Grugg"

"Ugg use stick hit things"

If you go back and listen closely, Ugg specifies that the stick was just in his hand, and we can infer that he probably only hit Grugg by swinging his arms around wildly by accident. This is very much a case of "Ugg find stick, hit Grugg by accident," which is very much not their intended use case and not a case of "Ugg normally have stick surgically grafted to hand to hit Ugg." - the implication being that this is a counterargument to 'Ugg should be able to use sticks as an impliment to hit Grugg as he has demonstrated capability for in the past' and so is arguing that 'Ugg shouldn't be able to use sticks to hit Grugg in this version of the game where very little has remained the same in the last decade or so with mechanics like jumpdrives, POBs, and a very large portion of ship classes being recent additions that weren't in vanilla.'


I would prefer cruisers don't require separate groupings for forward and reverse heavies - there's very little overlap in velocities so you're sort of forced to. With Prims, shieldbusters, flak, heavy, and defense turrets being separate groups required, it's kinda sweaty.

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FEEDBACK

[The_Godslayer]

Both of you make valid points. Ugg just likes pretty explosions and wants more of them in the game.

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I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.

"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"

[Lord Caedus]

Both of you make valid points. Ugg just likes pretty explosions and wants more of them in the game.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I think cruiser mines could be a thing, though difficult to balance, but justifying it because it was a thing in vanilla is a bit outside of the scope of what we need.

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[Dark Chocolate]

As per current balance, you slap double rockhounds + pulses and slaughter everything. Don't bother with any other setup. There have been numerous patches and no change to this. Perfectly balanced.

[James Greed]

A small shard of me is glad that the objectively best weapon (rockhound) is not a codename. The rest of me absolutely despises that you can practically faceroll anything with components/armor a whole lot easier when you are a rockhound gamer. Especially if your target has clustered components.

As for cruiser mines, I'd prefer not to turn every class into genital jousting even more than it already is just for the sake of 50 more mechanics.

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Greedback

[JadeTornado]

I have found Threshers to be entirely unhittable even at effectively point-blank ranges due to simply strafing side to side and the insane flatness of their hitbox. They can show their engine to you for the whole fight, but as long as they have left and right strafe keys you won't hit them at all.

I doubt it works in duels, but I'll give it a try once more, thank you. Looking forward to duel with you.

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In a live role playing environment, you are not owed or mandated to be given a duel. Fights develop differently every time and people have varying degree of time to log on their hands or have their own plans.

Cap PVP discord server

[JadeTornado]

bump

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In a live role playing environment, you are not owed or mandated to be given a duel. Fights develop differently every time and people have varying degree of time to log on their hands or have their own plans.

Cap PVP discord server