Version 4.81 Beta 3 Rep Problems

[Colm Cillian]

If zoner sponsored missions where added to the freeport stations it would be a big help. Is it possible to make "elemenate enemy forces" type missions against the nomads for the zoners(since that have enemy factions) without giving the nomads a rep modifier?


If its a matter of needing an RP reason, it doesnt take much imagination to realize why the zoners would want to higher freelancers to fight off a race that indescriminatly attacks human ships.

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Colm_Cillian-Bounty Hunter-Colonial Viper
Honeycat-Free Trader-Transport
Myrna_Andraste-Colm's Battleship-Bounty Hunter Battleship
[RM]Damefrieden-Phantom
[RM]RMC_Geliebter_Sieg

[TarNutz]

I see how the Nomads going neutral could be unbalancing if everyone else was neutral or positive: Freelancer without enemies is boring. I have a solution.

I was thinking that if the Order had big positive Empathy with all human factions one way or another and a negative Empathy with JUST the Nomads, and the Nomads had negative Empathy with JUST the Order (and was otherwise directly neutral with all other factions as far as Empathy's concerned), then the only way to get the Nomads to go neutral or better would be to shoot down the Order, which would cause all the human factions to hate you. If you're afraid that they could just get Neutral standing all around, then go ahead and pump the Order's positive empathy with the humans to double or triple their negative emapthy value with the Nomads. A ratio of +.40 positive Human and -.10 or -.05 negative Nomad for the Order should do it: by the time you got the Nomads to stop hating on you the Humans would be out for blood.

Then again, shooting down ANYONE if the Order has Positive Empathy with all Humanity would piss off the Order quickly... so you'd have to prove yourself to them before you could dock at their bases by fighting the Nomads in Omicron Alpha, Omicron Gamma and Alaska for a while, at least until they went Neutral. Which makes sense: secret societies often require initiation rituals, and as secretive as the Order is, most humans wandering into their territory would probably be considered hostile until proven otherwise (the Nomads DO possess people after all). Positive Empathy does not equate with stupidity. Plus this encourages those who've moved on to fighting Nomads to leave their petty quarrels with Human factions behind in the face of more sinister foes: involvement in such petty quarrels is frowned upon by the Order as a waste of time and resources. Besides which, the Mafia has a saying: "The Eagle doesn't hunt flies."

Shooting Nomads would only buy you points with the Order in such a case: the rest of the factions would continue to hate you or love you regardless of your Nomad hunting. Shooting down enough Order pilots (and ONLY Order pilots) would buy you points with the Nomads, but at the cost of every friend you had in Human space. Empathy, BTW, doesn't trickle down: shooting down Xenos gives you bonus points with Liberty Police AND Liberty Rogues, Outcasts, etc. The fact that the Rogues and Outcasts like your activities too doesn't make the Liberty Police any less grateful. And then you don't have to bribe anyone, etc to get the Order to like you. The only "problem" would be that the Bounty Hunters wouldn't attack the Order anymore if they were positive along with everyone else.

If you want the Bounty Hunters to continue shooting the Order, that's easy. If you left the Bounty Hunters out of the Order's little Empathy circle (but didn't make 'em negative like the Nomads, just put 'em at zero) then you can leave the "Rep" value negative with the Order. Then, shooting down the Order won't piss off the Bounty Hunters, but won't make 'em your friends either (everyone else, of course, will hate your guts). Meanwhile, the Bounty Hunters will continue to attack Order ships and bases. I don't know if you could still land at Sheffield in Manchester or Deshima in Shikoku with neutral or better Bounty Hunters and everyone else hostile: my guess is no, because they're "lawful" (despite how often they attack House capital ships in a mistaken attempt to "rescue" the officers aboard).

About the only thing I can think of that might imbalance this system and allow someone to be friendly with Nomads AND Humans would be to bribe factions while attacking the Order here and there: you might be able to save your rep with a few factions while getting the Order to hate your guts and the Nomads to lay off. You could easily fix this, if you leave the Rep column (not Empathy) as NEGATIVE for all factions against the Nomads, so bribing ANY faction would piss the Nomads off, undoing your attempt to butter them up by killing the Order (which of course pisses off the Humans you wanted to bribe in the first place). With this consideration, any way you cut it: if you work for the Nomads, you're an enemy of Humanity.

How's THAT? With this solution, you COULD go Nomad, at the price of your Humanity. Going Nomad would make it a pain in the ass to dock anywhere in the House systems: the Omicrons would be your new home. Makes it a bit interesting in the late-game, too: after you've gotten rich fighting the House's conflicts and moved on to the Order/Nomad conflict in the Edge Worlds, you could then turn against humanity for the promise of advanced technology only sold on Nomad bases to Nomad friendlies. You could even have a change of heart and fight the Nomads again afterwards to regain your good name with Humanity: adds a whole new dimension to the gameplay with the tweak of two factions' Empathy sets (and perhaps one Reputation set). Besides which: what's the point of having bases you can't dock at?

Have thine Cake and eat it too! :cool:

[DarkOddity]

Very well put. I would love to see it ingame.

However I do not know how the reputation system works and how to mod it. Therefore I don't k now if it can actually be done. Would be nice though. :)

Oh! Almost forgot...

If nomad rep is only affected by killing order and bribes, what prevents a player from going off and killing normal NPC's in mass quantities to get their nuetral/green rep back with the rest of Sirius?

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My Website

[TarNutz]

DarkOddity: I've extensively tested the Reputation system in Unmodded and Modded SP games, especially versions of Discovery.

The FLS103 program I mentioned (and attempted to attach to my post) shows very clearly how it works. It's a PITA to find on the Lancer's Reactor file server though: it's under Misc files, and not very clearly marked in addition to being buried in an avalance of irrelevancy. I am willing to email an attachment of the compressed install file for anyone to use if they hit me up: tarnuts@hotmail.com

You can also find it here:

http://lancersreactor.com/t/download/dow...sp?id=1005

Screenshots are shown of the program. The second tab from the left, "Factions", is where you'll find the reputation data. Check there before choosing your enemies.

The main reason I got that beauty was to figure out how the Reps worked. I always wondered why pounding the Xenos, whose listed enemies are "Everyone Else" and listed friends are "None", would invariably piss off the Bundschuh, Zoners and Synth Foods. Once I fired up the program and studied the numbers, I realized that there was some hidden stuff in the Reps that would make a difference. A little experimentation revealed that the Rep column was for Bribes and determining whether factions would fight each other, and the Empathy column determined who'd be pissed and who'd be pleased if you attacked Faction X.

This led me to create a strategy known as the Beat Down List, where I'd choose very carefully the factions to pound on. I'd leave the Corsairs and Outcasts and their allies alone (and sometimes the allies of their allies: I pound the Farmer's Alliance occasionally because it pleases the Blood Dragons and calms them down after I've pounded the Gaians - stupid Captain Planet!). This cuts down on some of the challenge in the late-game (Outcasts and Corsairs make formidable enemies) but there's always Nomads to hunt.

[Dab]

About the missions for Zoners.

I believe that COULD work, as you get two rep raises from missions. One from attacking the faction's enemy, and another for completing a mission for them. So, though you wouldn't get the rep for killing nomads, you could still get some for completing a mission for them.

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[DarkOddity]

Unfortunately Igiss has already stated that missions vs nomads don't work. :(

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My Website

[Dab]

Oh... Must have missed that.. Well, nevermind then.. But we still need some method to higher Zoner rep..

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[Igiss]

2TarNutz: It took some time, but I've read everything. One simple objection is: 1) there are no nomad bases anywhere (and if there were - what NPCs? what rooms there) and 2) not so easy as it seems from your post. This way players could gain neutral rep with everyone, thus having access to all Sirius including nomads.

I'd agree that this matter requires some more research, but for 4.81 I'm satisfied with reputation modifiers as they are.

To gain better reputation with Zoners, you could use LWB, Unioners, GMG, IMG (IMG in particular)... they are all slightly allied to Zoners. As for Zoner missions, I don't know exactly why are they not giving missions... guess the reason is that they are neutral to all surrounding factions. For now, I'm rising reputation modifiers for Zoner guardians, so that changes in Zoner reputations will influence guardians faster. Then, I'm removing reputation requirements for all equipment on clan bases. Hope that's enough.

[TarNutz]

DarkOddity: sorry, I didn't answer your question there.

You COULD do so, I assume. Beat down the Nomads, then beat down the Order, then beat down the other factions to even up your reps. I guess if you did that and mostly confined your beatings to the unpopular human factions after pleasing the Nomads, it could work: it's not like you could piss the Order off any more than you already have by buttering up the Nomads. But as soon as you started hitting the Order again (likely while moving through the Omicron Systems to off-load human cargo at a Nomad base for even higher prices than usual), you'd be quickly back to square one with all the humans hating you. Some advanced cruise disruptors in the Order's fighters would make getting away from them without a fight VERY difficult.

So, yeah, it's possible. But you'd be working harder to make less money if you did so and then confined yourself to the House Systems to keep your rep system from falling apart (which it would at first Order contact). Best prices for pilots in the houses are Bounty Hunters at Arranmore, and that's a far cry from 28,000 for a Nomad at Cambridge Research Station. You'd make more without having to be careful about it just stomping Nomads for the Order.

Here's a thought: the Nomads would be looking for a way to re-infiltrate the colonies after their defeat. For these hypothetical high-end Human-traitor players, add a commodity called "Nomad VIP" (Or "Nomad Spy") that can only be bought in Nomad Bases and must be brought to House Capital Worlds or perhaps Battleships for the best prices: "You'll be paid your "credits" when I'm safely on Manhattan, Host - the small retainer you paid us is to ensure your loyalty."

How's THAT for smuggling? You'd be tempted to return to the Nomad bases to off-load your human prisoners and then load up on Nomad VIPs or Spies to make the run back. In or out, you're fighting the Order either way and chancing the upset of the whole rep balance you've cultivated. Makes the end-game very high-stakes if you want to play both sides. Big risks, big rewards!

[marauder]

Actually the BHG aren't the best selling pilots in house space.

And next time you post something like that about trade routes or selling locations include a spoiler.

Some people actually want to find stuff themselves, although theres also alot of people who'd rather be given everything because their too lazy to find/look themselves.

As to the rep problem you pointed out, well, I really don't see what the problem is.

So far only the phantoms have RP'd neutral status with the nomads which doesn't extend to the game itself.

So, yes they might RP helping the nomads or landing on a nomad base, but ingame they still get shot at by them.

Besides which as theres no dealers or anything on any nomad bases, of which the nomad lair and dyson sphere would be the dockable ones.

The nomad lair is just a giant tunnel so you can pick up the nomad powercore in the SP campaign and the dyson sphere is just access to the nomads home in SP.

So theres no point in being able to get neutral or friendly status to the nomads.

Takagi's arch is owned by the corrupt kusari navy, not the nomads, so even with a neutral nomad rep you still wouldn't be able to land there.