SuperNova Antimatter Cannon

[13CentKiller]

Why would a bomber have a gun more powerful than almost any cap wep ?

Because a bomber is designed for it. The weapon was designed for it, the ship was designed to fire the weapon, and bombers were dispatched to use it to destroy capital ships.

Straight forward? I think so:)

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"Three o'clock is always too late or too early for anything you want to do."

[tansytansey]

mh, you seem pretty adamant that you're right and everyone else is wrong here, Wes. That doesn't make for a very nice debate.

Capital ships (I'm not sure if all of them) are getting Flak turrets in the next version, meaning any bomber that gets close to a battleship will get ripped to shreds. This is going to change bomber vs. cap combat completely, as bombers will have to stay at a range to fight. Nerfing bombers in this up coming version could have devistating results, rendering the class completely useless, and turning the server into capfest '09.

Lets try not to change too much in one version.

Also I think it'd be cool in battleships (only, not BC or cruisers) had a sideways-only firing torpedo mount on both sides, so they could broadside other capital ships. That would make for some AWSOME capital ship battles.

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http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Ni...gcloudscopy.png
Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[looqas]

My little input on the matter at hand.

We all know how the thing SHOULD be and work. All are crying after swarms of bombers to take out the caps. But where do you get numbers, eh?

In deep down FL is still a single player experience and everything is designed so that any single individual can enjoy the game his or her own way.

If we would make, say a minimum requirement to have, 3 bombers to take down a cruiser and 4 to BC and 5 to BS. Just to have a chance statistically to bring down the shield it would make the game really intolerable. All but factions can come up with the numbers like that. And it really would make cap usage go through the roof. Most of the caps now are owned by private citizens who want to play with the cap.

It's very fine by me if you want to fly your cap. Please do. But one of the problems I see is that caps are hardest ships to RP properly. What are caps for? I mean really, what are they for? For military operations. Keeping the home systems secure etc. Mostly patrolling and keeping things safe. But who is willing to have a cap and just sit in front of planet all day? So instead of doing that they want to go and start some sh1t (like most of the players so nothing new here). That's what the caps are used for now.

Don't you get me wrong. I have nothing against single people owning caps. It's just the idea of that money could buy a single person operated uber-ship of untouchableness and use it like overwhelming majority of caps are used now, to pawn people, that irks me.

I've flown a bomber for quite the while and every fight except one or two against caps have been hard work. In those easy fights both of the caps were piloted very badly. But in every other case I've been very hard pressed even to get to hull. Just the sheer volume of fire coming your way makes the thing very hard. So I agree with all those said that if a single bomber is a problem to you, you are not flying the ship right.


If there were 2 or 3 bombers against a lone cap the end result was pretty straightforward.

So I would not call single bombers overpowered if the cap driver knows anything at all. And if you are a lone bomber you either have an Inferno mounted, in which case you can have a slim chance if the cap if flown badly and it does not enter cruise when the bomber starts to get to her hull. Or if you have a Train CD in which case evasive maneuvering in cap is harder but the trade off is that bomber really does have very, very hard time to get through your shield (if it even can). And if you miss even once, you are very quickly back at square one with some of the bats and bots used since inevitably, unless you are TEH-EVADER incarnate, you are bound to take hits.

Besides even multiple bombers are not too overpowering if the cap driver knows his business. Personally I think it takes more skill to be an effective cap driver than an effective bomber. Mainly because at some point everyone has flown VHFs and Bombers and fought in them, but not many have fought in bigger ships effectively. If a cap owner has put hours in trading to aqcuiring the ship they should be willing to put some hours into mastering them too and not expect to be untouchable. If there are no deterrants to any single ship then it will lead to terrible abuse. If the deterrant would be that 3 or more ships is needed to bring down one then I think we all can see where it would lead.

While flying in my bomber I certainly don't feel the power coursing my veins. Every single ship class provides a threat to me. From LFs, VHFs, caps to certain tradeships. Since virtually any ship can take on a bomber it usually comes down to a one very big free for all meaning I'm pummeled by player cap(s), VHFs, LFs AND Traders who suddenly feel the need to get the kill. Not to mention NPCs adding their bit to the volume of fire. So the longer the situation takes the worse the conditions get. And they get pretty bad very quickly. While flying my VHF I can handle the situation because I can dodge most of the fire, but in a bomber this is not the case. And because of this tendency that people feel that it's a free-for-all if they see a bomber that someone else has already engaged AND because the bomber usually has, how should I say it nicely, multiple enemy contacts in his list, I've been countlessly sucker-punched by those who think it's nice to jump in the party. And usually they do not even take the courtesy of announcing their presence let alone making sure that their presence is noted by the bomber pilot before engaging. Usually the first time I notice an unwelcome addition to the fiesta is the point I suddenly see the I've lost 2/3 of a hull and the little shield I had left in couple of seconds. Whoopy-doo. At that point I feel very over-powering with my SNAC, because that's tehe only weapon left really anymore at that point.

And at the same time I should be RPing flawlessly with the next cap who has had the presence of mind to make hold his fire but is making demands at the same time or something along those lines.

Funnily enough when there are two bomber already engaged there is no such problem. But in a single bomber odds are stacking against you very quickly usually.

It's very rarely that I get to concentrate on one enemy in my bomber while a cap driver usually can give me his undivided attention.

I think all the bomber pilots have been in a situation I have described here. Maybe it's a rant, but that's how I see the issue.

To SNAC topic. In light of this I think SNAC (or bomber) is not overpowered. I think cap drivers just need to fly their ships better. They certainly are not in a weak position if they face a bomber. I would say if they learn how to fly they win every 1 on 1 against a bomber. And against multiple bombers; That's what gives the kicks. Taking down multiple targets. It takes skill like it does in any other ship in this game.


Interesting idea: I think it would be worth a bit of tought that maybe remove the SNAC shield damage to almost 0. And double or triple the Inferno like shield buster damage on shields and put the energy usage to SNAC levels. In this way a lone bomber could have both mounted but would not have the Train CD, thus leaving the cap always a way out by cruising.

In any combination of SNAC, Inferno and CD a single bomber could not win against the cap unless he would be stupid enough to see the thing to the end in case of Inferno + SNAC. It would take minimum of two bombers to bring down any cap.

This would probably make cap drivers cringe because they would have to flee and leave the system for 4 hours, so a single bomber could drive the camping cap away. In my opinion this would make the situation more fair for all parties. It would give the bomber pilot a fair chance against cruisers and it would give the cruisers a fair chance to disengage (in case of SN + Inferno loadout).

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Flying under radar.

[Wes_Janson]

Because a bomber is designed for it. The weapon was designed for it, the ship was designed to fire the weapon, and bombers were dispatched to use it to destroy capital ships.

Straight forward? I think so:)

xxxx << Fighter

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So a bombers designed for a better main gun than a cruiser. And more importantly ALL bombers are designed for the SAME one ?



Excuse me while I go laugh at the illogic.

[Kambei]

xxxx << Fighter

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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX < Liberty cruiser.
So a bombers designed for a better main gun than a cruiser. And more importantly ALL bombers are designed for the SAME one ?
Excuse me while I go laugh at the illogic.

cruisers didnt cary nuclear weapons... bombers do :) (in real life)

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[Guest]

Well, since this is starting to look more or less like a uttermost argument and the thread is allready standing in its own grave...here are my two cents.

If you really are a good pilot, then your bomber will be good against both capital ships and fighters.
But, of course, people will whine about your skills and blame the ship or the weapons.
A few weeks ago, on my server, we tested something, and a Battlestar II was taken down solo by a Rogue GB.

Jim.Black of course heh heh

But still, bombers do their job, they are powerful, yes, that is why they are bombers, but like said above, they are really hard to fly if the capship they are facing knows how to fly as well or has at least one LF next to it. You must understand that things look overpowering on paper, mathematicly the bomber does dish out more power than a cap, but since the Human side of handling it is brought in, it will allways somehow turn out less efficient.

Leave the SN be, it has been modded to fit its needs far too many times, and like said above, if the ship/weapon is nerfed, the pilot will get better, adapt, and soon you will be whining once more.

[Linkus]

People, bombers are overpowered in 4.84
That is a fact that the Admin team know of and Igiss does too, why do you think the capital ships are getting flak guns to begin with? Capital ships are being made a little bit more powerful with the powercore and the introduction of proper flak lets you rip up any silly bomber pilot.

Now fights WILL be about skill.
Battleships etc will need to dodge somewhat since bombers would have to stay out of the flak range (600-900m or so is the maximum that I have heard) and so fire their Supernova at a distance, giving the capship enough time to dodge.

Of course, if they don't dodge, they lack skill and thus will lose.
If the bomber doesn't stay out of range of the flak or can't dodge either, it lacks skill and thus will lose.

So basically, 4.85 has more focus on skill than anything.

Now maybe we could give the mod designers a chance to actually release the mod and see how things are then?

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[teschy]

a Battlestar II was taken down solo by a Rogue GB.

I feel sorry for the Battlestar pilot. In all honesty, really.

[13CentKiller]

xxxx << Fighter

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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX < Liberty cruiser.
So a bombers designed for a better main gun than a cruiser. And more importantly ALL bombers are designed for the SAME one ?
Excuse me while I go laugh at the illogic.

While your laughin' away over there...I'll just add a few more cents.

What exactly does your diagram prove? And yes, all bombers are designed to fire massive slow moving energy ball that deals a lot of damage in a single hit. Remember, I can only just fire all my guns after firing, and it takes a good 1:50 for it to be able to fire again.

And if all capital ships had a gun as powerful as the nova, then there would be 3 or 4 of them, and they would turn into the upgraded version of a missile boat. I can only imagine the growth in popularity which is exactly what we don't need. In fact. If there where weapons available for capital ships as powerful as that, others would be complaining about imbalance. Others meaning plural....Not one person.

Remember armor isn't a measure of power, if that is what your trying to describe in your confusing diagram.

I can see it now: "Nova Boat 09"

I thought of that:D

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"Three o'clock is always too late or too early for anything you want to do."

[looqas]

People, bombers are overpowered in 4.84
That is a fact that the Admin team know of and Igiss does too, why do you think the capital ships are getting flak guns to begin with? Capital ships are being made a little bit more powerful with the powercore and the introduction of proper flak lets you rip up any silly bomber pilot.

Now fights WILL be about skill.
Battleships etc will need to dodge somewhat since bombers would have to stay out of the flak range (600-900m or so is the maximum that I have heard) and so fire their Supernova at a distance, giving the capship enough time to dodge.

Of course, if they don't dodge, they lack skill and thus will lose.
If the bomber doesn't stay out of range of the flak or can't dodge either, it lacks skill and thus will lose.

So basically, 4.85 has more focus on skill than anything.

Now maybe we could give the mod designers a chance to actually release the mod and see how things are then?

In this scenario, which is interesting and without a couple of reservations I have nothing really against, all the missile turrets should be make kinda useless. Those are the reasons why bombers try to hug the target.
Also have you seen how agile the smaller caps are? At ranges 500-600m they have no problem taking evasive action. But I'm interested to see 4.85 and how the things work there.

I still think that making SN only a Hull breach weapon and Inferno a shield buster only would have been a pretty good solution.

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Flying under radar.